Page 4 | When you know it is sexism / because you are a woman, but ...

YetAnotherSpartacus · 2017-02-07T10:44:48+00:00

Not sure where I am going with this, but it has been sloshing around in my brain for a while now, so I thought I'd attempt a post. Leaving aside those of us who have never experienced sexism or different / discriminatory / adverse / lesser (etc.) treatment because we are women, (in a desperate attempt to stop BTL comments), have women here experienced moments where 'something happens' and we know that it would have played out differently if we were men, but, it is hard to impossible to actually articulate how we are so sure of this, and to prove our case? I seem to have encountered this rather a lot lately, and it is getting me down. Thing is, it's always events that feel sequential and connected to me, because they happen one after another and after my half century on this planet have all added up, but to others, they look like isolated events. I've had conversations to that effect, which basically boil down to 'I have been treated badly because I am a woman' and the response has been 'it was just that one time', or 'just that one person and he's a knob', or 'you are over thinking it', or 'how do you know they would have treated you different if you were a man, or 'you always say that, it's because you are looking for sexism' or 'eyeroll'. I could give examples, but I thought I'd see if there was any resonance first. I think what I am ultimately aiming at is how do we articulate the patterned nature of these experiences and the cumulative effects they have on women, and how do we make people stop and think about this?

UnexplainedOnHerCollar · 07/02/2017 11:25

I've felt like this about men who come round to to jobs in the house - not all of them by any means. Some are lovely, respectful and talk to me like an adult with a brain. And then there are those who have that patronising, sneery or kind of crappy childish attitude, where they try to pull a fast one and I have to insist on what I want and then it becomes like a nagging mum/child dynamic, I hate it. Even if it's not overt, you know when it's happening yet it would be so hard to pin it down and prove it.

One time I had a bloke building a shed, he quoted me for the full job including a concrete base. It all went straightforwardly, then he tried to increase the price and add on the cost of the base separately. I wasn't having it and I said no, you quoted XYZ, now you're trying to confuse me, but I'm not stupid and I will pay what we agreed. (Yes I know I should have got it in writing, was ages ago, you live and learn.)

He basically gave me this sheepish, "fair cop" type look that I swear was exactly like a little boy who's been caught by his mum with his hand in the biscuit tin. It was that blatant, like "well I thought I'd give it a go eh". I KNOW he would not have tried on that with exP but I can't prove it.

Twice I've had women to do that type of job, it was bliss both times. I'm not saying women can't be chancers, but it was just so relaxed and calm, it felt like we could just let each other get on and respect each other.

And yes loads of other situations too. My tactic is generally to come over blunt, direct and knowledgable (even if I'm not especially, I will have a quick google and chuck in the odd relevant technical term) and look them in the eye. It's hard, and has taken me years to perfect as I prefer to avoid confrontation, but it works. I have seen men change in front of my eyes, especially in situations relating to my own profession (where I really do know what I'm talking about), from a basically disrespectful, superior attitude to having a look of "oh right, she's not a pushover."

It sucks though.

UnexplainedOnHerCollar · 07/02/2017 11:22

I've felt like this about men who come round to to jobs in the house - not all of them by any means. Some are lovely, respectful and talk to me like an adult with a brain. And then there are those who have that patronising, sneery or kind of crappy childish attitude, where they try to pull a fast one and I have to insist on what I want and then it becomes like a nagging mum/child dynamic, I hate it. Even if it's not overt, you know when it's happening yet it would be so hard to pin it down and prove it.

One time I had a bloke building a shed, he quoted me for the full job including a concrete base. It all went straightforwardly, then he tried to increase the price and add on the cost of the base separately. I wasn't having it and I said no, you quoted XYZ, now you're trying to confuse me, but I'm not stupid and I will pay what we agreed. (Yes I know I should have got it in writing, was ages ago, you live and learn.)

He basically gave me this sheepish, "fair cop" type look that I swear was exactly like a little boy who's been caught by his mum with his hand in the biscuit tin. It was that blatant, like "well I thought I'd give it a go eh". I KNOW he would not have tried on that with exP but I can't prove it.

Twice I've had women to do that type of job, it was bliss both times. I'm not saying women can't be chancers, but it was just so relaxed and calm, it felt like we could just let each other get on and respect each other.

And yes loads of other situations too. My tactic is generally to come over blunt, direct and knowledgable (even if I'm not especially, I will have a quick google and chuck in the odd relevant technical term) and look them in the eye. It's hard, and has taken me years to perfect as I prefer to avoid confrontation, but it works. I have seen men change in front of my eyes, especially in situations relating to my own profession (where I really do know what I'm talking about), from a basically disrespectful, superior attitude to having a look of "oh right, she's not a pushover."

It sucks though.

venusinscorpio · 07/02/2017 11:08

That's a really good point, I know exactly what you mean. Have never thought about it in that way before but have been that woman lots of times in the past and I hate it.

Original poster

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/02/2017 11:00

Batteries - excellent example! That's exactly what I was thinking of. I am so glad it isn't just me.

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Batteriesallgone · 07/02/2017 10:57

Another example which is more along the individual experiences line is when I worked (now a SAHM) and the drinks trolley would come into a meeting. The most junior member of staff would do drinks.

If male, they would ask what people wanted across the table, general chit chat until served then meeting started.

If female, the meeting would start. You would need to hover around discretely asking what drink people wanted and most of the time trying to guess. You would be expected to 'fade' in a way a man wouldn't. Not to mention the notes you would miss out on while sorting drinks because the meeting had started.

I noticed it after being there a few years and alternating being the most junior person - starter after me was male, and also after a while I was invited 'out' to meetings where others were the hosts so I saw it with their staff too.

It could have just been personality. But I don't think it was. Try and convince someone of that though and you're on a hiding to nothing.

Original poster

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/02/2017 10:55

I am disabled and this definitely resonates with me and discrimination over my disability .. yes I can see that happening. I'm sorry to hear your story. You've also added another dimension for me too. I tend to think in broad political terms and rarely internalise experiences, but of course others will think 'if it isn't because I am a woman (or disabled / black / working class, etc.) then it must be my fault. And our responsibilising society encourages that. It's all yoooooo not society!

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Original poster

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/02/2017 10:52

Batteries - thank you! You've added another domension already. I've been focussing on individual experiences that have me gritting my teeth, but of course women face exactly the same as a 'class' (or demographic). I hadn't put two-and-two together on that one (stupidly) until your post!

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Mehfruittea · 07/02/2017 10:51

I am disabled and this definitely resonates with me and discrimination over my disability. I've been pushed out of 3 jobs after varying degrees of bullying. I've signed confidentiality agreements and taken settlements rather than go to tribunal, yet I'm sat at home now, unemployed, and trying to rebuild my confidence and self worth. I can't help feeling that all this must be my fault somehow.

Batteriesallgone · 07/02/2017 10:49

I know what you mean.

I can't help with articulating it. I feel this quite strongly with maternity services tbh (pregnant again and it's playing on my mind). I feel like if it wasn't solely women as patients the tone wouldn't be half so patronising. But try and tell people that and you get 'oh but they have to pitch it at the lower end of education, anyone can get pregnant...' etc. But anyone can need any other kind of medical care too, and I'm usually treated like a capable adult in those scenarios.

Interested to see what others have to say.