When you know it is sexism / because you are a woman, but ...

There are four kindergarten classes in our local school. Three female teachers and one male one. We went on the school tour for parents of kindergarten students. The three female teachers told us about how they managed their classrooms, how they made the students feel happy and settled etc. The male stood up and told us categorically that he would have every child reading at the end of the year and no other kindergarten teacher could do that.

I was given a program to run at work and a male colleague called me and said "I can't lead this new program at the moment so I don't mind if you do the work but I'd like to be named as leader and I'll take over when I have time". I declined. Later I was invited to talk about my experiences in launching the program - entire purpose of the meeting was to pick my brains. I was asked a question and as I answered he interrupted and said "maybe someone else can get a word in if Pallisers would be quiet".

We were picking a team who would be given some extensive training. First cut was who were the best people - top two picks from each nominator. Then we looked at the demographics of the group - from enough sub-disciplines and locations and also to make sure they weren't all white men. First cut we looked at the demographics and it was very slightly more female than male. The kind of percentage that would not be a problem if it was a male/female ratio. But apparently it was a problem for the team to be majority female.

Agree with the comment about consciousness raising.

Batteriesallgone, your example with the meetings reminded me of a place I used to work at.

A male colleague and I sometimes had to help out on the reception switchboard. We were both junior staff so completely equal and even the same age. When he answered the phone, he used a monotone and simply said "Bloggs Services, what department?"

But I had a whole script where I had to say "Good Morning, thank you for calling Bloggs Services, how may I help you?" And I had to sound friendly and pleasant, which invited chit-chat about the weather and crap which I had to respond to nicely. This was how I was trained and what was expected. If I had used the monotone like my colleague I would've been pulled up about it.

But emoting with your voice for 6+ hours is exhausting! I was literally doing double the work of my colleague all day, but it would never be acknowledged.

It's like the meeting you describe where the man gets to be his normal self, but the woman has to anticipate the needs of others and be discreet and fade away when appropriate. This is all emotional labour which isn't recognised at all as work.

It's not a significant proportion - a weeks work on a project of 3-12 months duration. My complaint isn't that I'm doing more than is standard in the industry so much that DH is expected to do notably less, if that makes sense? Most clients expect a verbal pitch, which is almost as much work as the proposal this client wants from me. The chat and immediate decision he offers DH is really very unusual. And until now we've never found a company that asks for different things from different freelancers for the same kind of work.

You're right that I do sometimes feel I have more to prove than DH would feel (I was a single parent until recently, and not able to travel because of that) but not, I think, in this situation.

Yes I agree. As NotCitrus said about the Everyday Sexism site it is really important to document these incidences.

This is why consciousness raising groups was so integral to kickstarting the women's movement back in the 70s, isn't it?

Because previously, women assumed and were told that things that happened to us were random. But when we got together and compared notes, we saw that it was the same "random" things happening to women all the time and it was a pattern. Once we could articulate the pattern it became political. In some ways the internet has taken over from consciousness raising groups.

Quite a few where I have found it hard to get a meeting with/response from someone, and Mr A N Other has managed right away. Talking with people who seem to look behind you. I've a male colleague who thinks it's his skill which gives him credibility, but the people who actually look me in the eye and listen all find me very persuasive and effective!

Oh and if he's getting a significant proportion of the project for free as part of your pitch he ain't gonna change without a push. Why would he? He can ride off the back of your freebies atm.

Unless the work is very prescriptive there's nearly always scope to have a casual discussion first. Especially if you've done work for them before so you don't need to prove a certain level of competence.

Do you really need to be putting in all the unpaid work you currently are in advance? I don't want to come across as a bitch but is there perhaps an element of you feeling you have something to prove / have to justify your right to pitch?

Not a problem paying for lunch, Batteries. I can expense it and charge it to him if he gives me the gig, anyway.

His emails to me would normally be "We're doing x, on y. Are you interested in z? Let me know a date to expect your proposal if so."
Bit hard to reply to that with an 'Come out for lunch and we'll discuss it?' but I probably need to try.

DH is wondering whether he's heard on the grapevine that we've got married and if that'll lead to any changes. But I know that that client won't even be thinking in terms of it being an unequal pitching process or anything sexist. It'll just be that he 'happens' to feel like he wants to have lunch more with DH because they have penises are on the same wavelength.

Somer could you invite the client out for lunch to discuss it? Or would paying for lunch not be good for some reason?

I once had a sales rep come into our (open plan) office. He started talking down to my receptionist which immediately got my hackles up - he wasn't openly rude, just treating her like a little lady who couldn't possibly understand xyz.

I then [deliberately] wandered over and started talking about the topic. He clearly thought I was another LL and tried it with me. Big mistake. Huge.

It got to the point where I stopped him mid-flow, looked him dead in the eye and very firmly said "please strop treating me like a complete idiot". His entire manner changed after that and he couldn't stop gushing over anything I said.

What I've also found is that there's usually a group of MWMs nodding while Alpha MWM spunks out his ideas while the women sit there using all their energy not to visibly roll their eyes.

I've worked with a couple of men whose modus operandi is to come up with 'fantastic' ideas, talk at length to everybody about how this change is the best thing since orgasms and how everyone must now change to this new thing - no consultation with anyone, no clear instruction on how the change might happen. They just expect everyone else (usually women) to make this bonkers nonsense happen.

On a couple of occasions I've very politely asked for details. Jesus Christ the reaction. It's like I've pulled down their pants and waved a sharp scissors around. There is an actual fear reaction, it is truly bizarre. I've had men avoid me in the most obvious way. Thing is with these fuckers is that they might respond to my challenge quite calmly in a meeting but they invariably work behind the scenes to make sure they don't have to work with me again. What's basically happening is that they are the quintessential Mediocre White Men (MWM) who got where they are on zero talent and even less common sense by virtue of their Giant Scrotums. If someone asks them to think for a minute and come up with something that actually works they are immediately defensive - they are terrified of being shown up for the frauds that they are. Meanwhile the actually talented people (mostly women) are running around trying desperately to implement their utterly stupid 'ideas' and end up being the ones blamed when the 'ideas' inevitably don't work.

MrNC has the tact of a brick and had no name badge, so eventually started saying "Actually NotC is the one who went to your college", "Why are you ignoring my partner?" "Why are you forcing NotC out of this conversation?"

On that, don't you find it interesting that men are even allowed to challenge sexist behaviour towards a woman that they're witnessing, and it still remain just about social acceptable? Yet we're not really allowed to ourselves? (Not saying it's not good when a man does challenge it, because I think it is.)

I met my new DH through work and it's been fascinating and infuriating in equal measure seeing the ways in which we're treated differently by various companies (we both freelance). So many of the examples would be impossible to challenge - and if we do I fear it will be dismissed as 'different working styles' or something.

If anyone has an idea about how to challenge our biggest bugbear then I'm all ears:
So there's one, small but very successful company that we both have previously done successful projects for. When they have work that they think I'm interested in, I get an email from the guy in charge, laying out the project and asking if I want to pitch for it. If I do then I'm expected to do a fair bit of work (that I don't get paid for unless I actually get the project), then send it through to him. He then decides whether or not to award me the work (I've got 3 out of the 4 I've pitched for.)
Can anyone guess how the same dude goes about offering DH work?
He invites him out for lunch. At his cool club. Over lunch he tells him about the project and DH decides if he'd want it, then tells him his ideas for it, and the guy makes notes of what DH says, and gives him the job.

DH wants to challenge him on it the next time he's invited out for lunch. But that risks losing us income at a time when work is thinner on the ground (Brexit). Also I don't really want him fighting my battles for me - though I appreciate that he's appalled by it.

I find it often gets put down to one incident. But a series of such incidents makes a pattern. Or in the case of Lemony Snicket a great novel. If only this too was fiction.

(googles EF. Seems to be aimed at American teenagers.) Ah, that makes sense! Yes, ES. Though I've heard criticism of ES too, not sure why.

One where I first thought it was just me, until it clearly wasn't, was my Cambridge college had a reception for alumni in the House of Lords. Canapes, drinks, speech, guided tours, attempts to get money out of us. I took MrNC and we figured there would be some interesting people. Most of the guests were older (40-50, I was about 30), but I like talking to random so started speaking to people whose badges said they were the one who was at the college. As it went mixed in the 70s, the majority were male. And almost all of them looked at me, blinked, asked what my 'husband' did and if he'd been to Cambridge (yes) and then actually blocked me out, standing in front of me, to speak to him. Only thing they'd say was, invariably, "Oh, they let women in now do they? Hur hur hur!" Some of the wives looked very embarrassed - they all seemed lovely. After the third time I replied "Yes, they've admitted women since 1972 - so are you actually over 60 or did the women undergrads just avoid you?" Well, I wasn't going to see them again.

MrNC has the tact of a brick and had no name badge, so eventually started saying "Actually NotC is the one who went to your college", "Why are you ignoring my partner?" "Why are you forcing NotC out of this conversation?" and finally after about the 20th one, "Are you accidentally being really rude to my partner or are you just a complete twat?" Wife of the last one was hugely apologetic and I had to ask her if he treated her any better. She looked thoughtful.

The Lord hosting the event, and his mates roped in to do the unofficial tours, were all delightful.

Actually most recently, my boss (female) and I were chatting in a meeting with a male contractor, and mentioned being warned not to sit next to (ex head of a large industry body), and discussed how at least groping or under-table fondling had just about died out at work. The man was horrified, not that there'd been the odd incident, but that we assured him that every woman we worked with would have similar tales to tell.

Patronising women really seems to be an insecurity thing. Whenever I've been to builders' merchants, which is a lot, I often get queried whether I know what I'm doing, usually politely if clumsily, and all the experienced staff will then treat me with appropriate respect. Any bloke who tries to show off about his knowledge being greater than mine will invariably know less than me and be youngish.

NotCitrus, Everyday Feminism is reliably awful and stupid. I'm wondering if you perhaps mean Laura Bates and Everyday Sexism? Just the thing you said about collecting lots of anecdotes.

It's really frustrating isn't it OP? Our work is pretty evenly split between technical "coding" work and customer focused work. When I joined a couple of years ago, the head of coding was a woman and my direct line manager was too and there wasn't really a men's or women's job.

Last year our head of coding and my line manager left and both got replaced by men and the dynamic has entirely changed for the worse.

I'm now consistently asked to focus on customer work despite having a technical background and I've noticed that almost all the coding roles have been given to men, with us women basically given the nice friendly (boring) customer work. Of course, we still get asked to fix the mistakes that get made when male junior team members mess up our old work.

Guess which type is the most prestigious, the most visible and gets the most budget allocated to it?

NotCitrus do you mean Everyday Feminism or did you mean Everyday Sexism? Everyday Sexism is a useful site, Everyday Feminism not so much!

Have to say I've never noticed it with tradesmen. They've always treated me and DH as equal - although maybe more of them talk to me once they clock DH as someone who talks more than he listens

I had a mini breakdown (which I'm not proud of) when pregnant and being asked about skirting boards and said I don't know just ask my husband I can't deal with this. They were most taken aback that as the one in the house (I'd started mat leave) I didn't want to take advantage of that to get my own way, or maybe it was easier for them to get instant decisions. The site foreman even checked with me the next day did I really not want a say in future decisions.

I must have been lucky with the tradesmen we've employed.

I have been having a lot of building work done lately, with numerous men doing different sorts of jobs.

They constantly ask me what my DH thinks about this that or the other. I alternate between saying he agrees with me, which he does obviously, but wanting to say who fucking cares?

I am very friendly, polite and appreciative when the work goes well. And I am appropriately assertive when it doesn't. I don't rant, rave, swear or even frown. I just say that's not quite right, how about doing it like this?

Nonetheless, I have gained a reputation back at the office as a complete ball breaker. Three men have shown up now on separate occasions and when I have offered them coffee look surprised and one of them let slip 'well I think you're really nice'. (which led to me laughing, asking what he meant, and the whole thing came out).

Also, this whole tea and coffee business. I honestly don't mind supplying workmen with drinks etc. But every hour or so I get a tap on the door saying 'it's thirsty work here', holding out a tray of empty cups.

When DH had the day here alone with them they didn't once ask for tea or coffee. (He was preoccupied working on his laptop, so didn't offer.)

Tea making is definitely women's work.

I had a colleague once who was a nightmare (sexist, racist, disablist, homophobic, who couldn't cope with anyone brighter than him - and between me and our three staff, we covered each of those categories at least twice over).

Our manager had vanished so eventually I persuaded big boss to take our team problems seriously and other team leaders tried to mediate.

Apparently the key problem was I expected to be treated like a man. All I could say was "well duh!" - I'd had many complaints to him about things like him sending emails mentioning Bob, Tim, Andrew and Miss Citrus, where I wanted my name used like everyone else thank you (and btw that's Dr Citrus to you...)
It was quite disturbing how many managers who got involved thought that he should be able to treat men and women differently in the office - though eventually my union lawyers were fab and eventually he was fired.

"Why didn't you ask what helping means?" is a really good phrase. I know people who use the word 'helpy' to mean people who think they are being helpful but really aren't, just making themselves feel good. A blind friend who found himself dragged across roads he didn't want to cross at least once a week had a good rant on this.
Not checking what would be helpful goes with thinking you know better than a mere woman or poor ickle disabled person. Not consciously, but it's there.

I know people here complain about Everyday Feminism, but as a means to collate enough anecdotes that you get useful data, it's a good tool.

oops