Intersectional Feminism

Aliasnumberone I'm in Oz.

The court case was Bolt v. Eatock. Bolt is a poisonous Murdoch columnist who did personal 'exposes' targeting Aboriginal people who had 'pale skin', arguing that they were abusing the system by getting jobs and grants reserved for Aboriginal people. Effectively, his argument was that they had white privilege.

The person in question on my facebook group said that white presenting Aboriginal people (like herself, she said) had white privilege.

If you know anything about Aboriginal history, you will know that the government targeted paler children to remove from their parents in the Stolen Generation, the idea being that they would be easier to assimilate thereby hurrying up the cultural genocide. So to argue that white presenting Aboriginal people have privilege is quite nonsensical. And offensive.

It looks like an endless game of top trumps. Where the overall winning card appears to involve the having of a penis.

The accuracy of what is being said seems to have become unimportant. The focus having shifted onto defining how "right" something is based on who is saying it.

Which means an awful lot of bollocks gets given a lot more time, weight and attention than it deserves.

It appears to encourage opression olympics, whereby people feel forced to dig out and amplify all the ways they personally feel more disadvantaged, as a move to defend their right to a voice/opinion at all. Which probably isn't doing much to maximise the number of powerful, stable and "fact based" people willing and able to fight women's corner in a way that will generate tangible results in the real world.

Barcoo, what's the article from everyday meninism you're referring too, and which court case? Was the court case in the us or in Ireland?

Sorry correction: halal make-up is not a feminist concern

Quencher thanks for your reply. I do understand how colonialism has lasting impacts today. Indeed, if you impose a map of the world's most failed states over a map of the European Empires, you find that Britain was the worst colonial ruler of all in terms of the legacy (and savagery at the time, no doubt, although that doesn't accord with the Whig discourse which always points to the French or the Belgians as being more violent towards the colonised).

However I also feel that liberal feminism or intersectional feminism is co-opting postcolonial critiques in order to disempower real, legitimate concerns with the situation of women. Indeed, if you look at that illogical rant against the Vancouver Women's Library, it equates or links the treatment of trans people by feminists within the colonial project.

I don't see women's equality and women's rights as a decadent Western concept. I'm not a cultural relativist when it comes to women's rights. If that makes me a hateful racist bigot, so be it.

I do think that halal make-up is not a women's concern, even though that article is (gently?) encouraging Western women to support it because it is 'what Muslim women want'. However this is essentialising Muslim women just as much as what the author is opposing. I see Halal make up as a simple capitalist, consumer driven supply and demand issue. I don't think it's a feminist issue, because I don't think rights are being infringed if women who want it can't access it. This recent discussion on the Reddit page shows different Muslim women's views: www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/5rx41f/i_cant_stand_the_american_lefts_use_of_the_hijab/

Surely we feminists can choose what we want to support from the various campaigns and causes around the world, whether Western or not. Ideology is everything, what our local 'leader' wants is variable. Intersectional feminism prevents us from doing this. Women or anyone from around the world can feel free, as far as I'm concerned, to condemn the statutory savagery against women's bodies in Ireland (I'm part Irish). I don't care who brought the Catholic Church to Ireland, I just want it to stop.

In fact, our local 'leader' is supporting a ridiculous illogical stance on racism (that comes from the American Everyday Feminist borg), which directly contravenes an important court case that determined it was racially vilifying. So this person is actually vilifying herself and her community. Her white sidekicks are supporting her with 'right on!' type comments and I just think, well, you're actually breaking the law based on the precedent established by that court case.

Great thread, thankyou everyone that's posted. I'm a lot of online spaces and many are American in origin and I've been told to shut up and sit down as a white feminist and a terf for pointing out that the use of the word hysterical is sexist and not appropriate language for women to use to attack other women... Which is neither white feminist or terfy but because I'm white they're convienient silencing tactics. I've learned a lot about intersectionality and how white women benefit form a structure that benefits them from its inherent racism but I do not think in many cases throwing around 'white feminist' is used as anything other than a put down to undermine women. Identity policy's and liberal feminism is in many ways going down a route that is divisive. I remember reading about intersectionality in its infancy in the second wave movement and how at public meetings women were expected to list their oppressions to validate their right to hold opinions, 'my name is X I'm a working class black women who has survived sexual abuse and and discriminated against on the basis of my disability X... I really hate the oppressions olympics that go on in current liberal spaces, it feels so counter productive. If we can't focus on class analysis and must constantly consider each individual we will lose our energy for a tusk effective activism. I'm all for intersectionality just not how I see it being practised in the groups I'm in.

@Morriszapp
Can I just ask, what things do white feminists do to exclude black feminists?
I have just come a cross a counter argument to three different thinking pieces written by white women from a white woman's point of view criticising a certain person without understanding the historical context while trying to shut that person up. It showed the divide in feminist understanding of the female body from racial background point of view.

	<strong>Black women do not have the same relationship with maternity as white women do. Why? Years of systemic racism, chattel slavery, white supremacy and because the dissemination of</strong> <a class="break-all" href="https://hamtramckfreeschool.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/hooks-bell-aint-i-a-woman-black-woman-and-feminism.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">negative portrayals of black motherhood are pervasive in American culture</a>e<strong>*.</strong>

•   <strong>*Pregnancies and labor</strong> <a class="break-all" href="http://www.npr.org/2011/07/08/137652226/-the-race-gap" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">tend to be riskier</a>r<strong>* for black women because of systemic racism within healthcare and the lack of access to good maternity care pre and post labor.</strong>
  

•   <strong>*While many white women fought for reproductive rights, black, latinx and native women were fighting for reproductive justice as a result of</strong> <a class="break-all" href="http://msmagazine.com/blog/2011/07/21/sterilization-of-women-of-color-does-unforced-mean-freely-chosen/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">forced sterilizations and eugenics programs</a>s<strong>* in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries.</strong> If I remember rightly, in the seventies these where still being carried out. A lot of black and mixed race children who where born under the nazi Germany where also sterilised. It's because the race was not seen as a threat but could be stoped from breeding further.  
  

It's one of those things that would have come a cross as trivial. But because some of the women decided to weigh in with their views that their luck of understanding was shown through their misogynior. One body is seen as more acceptable to look at than the other based on race.

quencher please post whenever you like! I'm like everyone else, happy to be told when stuff is racist/exclusionary by a black woman. Not when I get tone policed by someone white.
Interestingly I have never seen a BAME man in these discussions. Only white men.

@Barcoo2
I just read your link to the Muslim women article. I can understand why they would want halal nail polish the same way a vegan feminist would want a vegan one too. It is debatable whether it's a feminist issue or it should be under religious one. However, if the people who feel to be affected the most are women. I would not be stoping them if they feel they have to carry it under their banner.
I can also, understand how a feminist who is a vegan will be at odds with Muslim woman who wants the animal product to be halal. The best option would be to have animal free.

They gave you the link to the colonial point and didn't bother reading it. Would this make sense.
They fail to notice that many of the regions where these practices occur are victims of Western imperialism and that many groups that carry them out, like Boko Haram and the Taliban, are direct results of colonialist regimes.
The link posted has this to say.
Borno Emirate, where Boko Haram started, was an ally of the British, so when it became part of the Empire in Africa in 1905, the ruling dynasty was kept on. The idea of administering colonial possessions through traditional rulers (“indirect rule”) was promoted by colonial administrator Lord Frederick Lugard, who extended the practice to other Muslim principalities. As governor of Northern and Southern Nigeria from 1912-1919, Lugard continued the policy of leaving the North essentially neglected under the control of traditional feudal rulers, while southern areas were developed more but without concessions to labor unions and democracy.

They are not saying that colonialism caused FGM or the kidnapping of the girls. They are talking about how colonialism work. One part of that country was neglected. Extremist factions grew and with it things like FGM too as they took more control of different areas.

Firstly, the British colonial rulers brought groups to together that should have been kept separate. Two or three separate state or countries because of different belief systems.They developed one part of the country more leaving the north to feel neglected.
After the Biafran war, the Muslim population have tried to have their views and points heard or included in the government laws. There was and they still get resistance. However, a number of state have implemented sharia law a long side state. Extremist views like boko haram began to grow because they felt they were not being listened to.

They kidnap the girls and we proclaim how abhorrent their behaviours are when we forget the roles colonialism has played. We do forget that they are being funded by Muslims groups from the east. A lots of the guns and weapons in the east has funding from the west in so many different ways.
Not forgoing those from North Africa.

Sorry quencher I'm back now and have read your post properly. I agree with everything you say about quotas. Again I'm sorry for my misleading comment.

I think within activist groups or progressive discussion groups there is a problem with leadership, because identity politics is about who is entitled to speak and who should shut up and listen. It's not an equal environment and actually does the disadvantaged minority person a disservice as it separates them from a collective which should have robust discussion and interrogate its own ideas and thoughts.

I should clarify as my post about how my activist groups used to operate may have sounded callous about whether BAME people felt included. It may not have been a perfect system for including and nurturing them, but it was a hell of a lot better than what we have now. Everyone (absolutely everyone) who wanted to participate had their skills nurtured. We need to do a leaflet - who hasn't done one yet - you? Who would like to show x how to lay out a leaflet? You? Perfect, your names are down. Who hasn't bashed a lecture yet? You? and you? Who will volunteer to train and support these new lecture-bashers? And so on. It was very nurturing and insisted on ensuring everyone had a broad swathe of activist skills. Also we always made sure chairs were rotated by sex.

With most umbrellas of terminology and movements can become too big for their boots. It always happens until they break off and new ones are formed.

Devi thanks. Answering here earlier I felt like one of those women who bring up "what about the menz". I only answered because intersectional feminism does includes black woman. I hope it's not looked at as diverting away from the intended conversation and debating or silencing anyone.

Barcoo the people you come a cross on Facebook is the reason I avoid some places on line like the plague. That includes Facebook. Am happier person for not looking on there. They used to make me feel depressed.

Sorry Quencher I don't have time to read fully or consider fully but I'm sorry if I came across as someone who dislikes quotas. I'm fully in favour of them. I've been reading Adolph Reed Jr who says that if identity politics is followed logically, then we have quotas amongst the one percent but no material change for the majority.

Also my point about Obama was nothing to do with the way people voted for Hillary or Trump, more that he was lauded as a black leader but he hasn't actually been able to change anything. So we need to target structural problems that cause racism.

I'm making a Marxist argument essentially. We need to challenge class and capitalism. Sorry I have to go now.

a team organised the event. At the same time it came across as exclusionary. Similar to what most black feminist thought always happened. I don't know whether that was pointed out or not. But an effort was made to change that.

didn't magically make the system more progressive or weaken one percenter capitalism.
No! What it did was attack the hornets nest of racist. This is where racism prevailed over patriarchy for women who voted for trump. The women didn't question their sex and position in society and if they did, they saw someone like trump to be worth more than their dignity.

Are you saying that the only reason Barack obama become leader was because of our need for intersectionality? Please! do not blame Barack for white women voting trump. Or americas hatred for people they think is other.

I don't think we have an obsession with leadership. A lot of people are unintentionally biased or racist. Quotas are only put in place to help with bridging divides for groups that would be ignored even though they have similar skill and abilities to perform in some areas where they are excluded.

What you have said is similar to those who complain about people of colour getting certain roles on tv. What they believe is that everyone has the ability to work and Get similar goals. We all know that bs because different circumstances hold people back. Women who are feminist should know better. The limitations do not only apply to women. If there is a woman who has the same or more credentials or ability to the males counterpart she is in competition with. She should be able to get the role. She should not be ignored because she is woman. The same thing applies to racism. The same thing applies between women of colour and white women. There is nothing wrong with.
If diversity is requested to represent a group that will be at that match there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone speaks for who they are. Different issues similar goals.

quencher I love your posts on here, they are always thought provoking. That's one of the reasons I get annoyed with the "white feminism" tag. I'm really interested in what women from all different backgrounds have to say and I know I'm lucky to be white British middle class.
I just don't like "white feminist" being used as a silencing tactic when people discuss e.g. trans rights. I think most feminists are pretty self aware liberal people and too quick to accept the shitty guilt label so it's a good way to shut them up.

When cops or the management of wherever we were occupying said 'we want to speak to the leader', we would say 'we have no leader, speak to all of us'.

Quencher I don't understand why they needed to appoint leaders or a team anyway. When I've organised rallies (some quite large ones, tens of thousands of people), we just had a collective and we decided on speakers within the collective. People put their hands up to be media liaison and everyone who wanted to could do it. People put their hands up to be speakers and everyone who wanted to could do it. People who hadn't had a turn or experience were encouraged to take it on. We didn't focus on 'quotas' like nowadays. Perhaps some BAME women felt left out, and that's why we have this situation today, but it didn't feel like that. A lot of them were, like a lot of women are, very bolshy and assertive. (I'm generally not - I never put myself forward for public roles).

It's this obsession for leaders. I just don't get it. Barack Obama, after all, didn't materially improve the situation of African-Americans living in poverty. He was coopted into the system. Identity politics - getting him to be president - didn't magically make the system more progressive or weaken one percenter capitalism.

Barcoo your point just pointed out one of the issue that rose before the women's match. The organisers of the match decided they where too white and decided to appoint three black women on the team. A group formed opposing the selection. They declared they won't attending the match because it was not what it was intended for. Whatever they meant by that. Now your post makes sense because it probably came across as intersectional feminism at play. Putting race before women's rights. However, the way I looked at it was more about white feminism being insular and forgetting that there is more than just white feminist about. The fact that more black women supported Hilary and showed their dislike for trump but none was on the team that that came together to go and protest against him.
To me what it meant was, white women who opposed those appointed would rather aline with patriarchy than stand side by side with black women and women of colour in general.

It's nothing new. some of the suffragettes held the belief and that belief still lives on. It's all down to racism even though sexism has no boundaries regardless of colour. Some different from others but they all boil down to women being discriminated against because they have a vagina.

Can I just ask, what things do white feminists do to exclude black feminists? Most recent thing I saw was some idiot claiming "a woman is the n**ro of the world". It's not a recent statement but one that keeps on coming back every now and then. This chimes with the link posted above because the op in that link did say that black women are among the groups she mentioned that weren't silenced the way white feminist are now days. It's not different to those who think white women should have their turn or when will it be when it's just their turn without anyone interrupting.

Mrsjay is not about divide and conquer. There has always been a dived. There has never been a time when all of feminism was under one hegemony with a single goal. Different groups have different needs and it has played out differently through history.

In regards to feminist working together with gay/lesbian community.
I remember reading this an I thought it did make sense on why they would feel that it's ok for feminist to join in and help. Both groups affected by how they use there reproductive system. They are trying to break away from misogynistic religious fundamentalism held by those like trump and the women who think that it's ok for it to be controlled in such a away.
"There’s this big backlash. The same groups that are against abortion and contraception are also against the LGBTQ community because they’re against nonreproductive sex. Otherwise it’s just illogical for anyone to be against gays and contraception."

Thanks Devi it feels good to have this feminist bolthole with intelligent women (much more intelligent than me) who refuse to take things at face value.

I just clicked on that muslim women everyday feminism link to have another head-shaking session, and a pop up appeared, telling me about workshops for 'healing from toxic whiteness'. FUCK OFF.

I actually think that the whole acknowledging your white privilege hand wringing thing is white people being self-indulgent and dominating spaces with their problems. Intersectional feminists from the minorities, who are the leaders, have become self-satisfied little tyrants who love all these people prostrating themselves around them. I don't think they are that way naturally, but that is what they become by this system.

A lot of the criticisms I've read about identity politics say that there is no broader understanding of capitalism and class. It's just 'you're racist, you must acknowledge it'. Everyone should be able to choose the ideology or perspective they want instead of slavishly following the nearest, loudest person who comes from a minority who may have pretty fucked up ideas.

Gah, I need to go and smash something.

Totally agree barcoo

I should add that the logical consequence of intersectional feminism is that transwomen become leaders of feminist groups and other progressive groups. After all, they are the most disadvantaged of all. They have the right to state they are triggered and unsafe by anything that is said, hence why women are being shut down for talking about their reproductive rights. It's intersectional feminism that is trying to shut down Julie Bindel and the working class library. I'm utterly fucking sick of the whole insidious thing. I need to go and DIE IN A FIRE.

OP I've NC'd to post here. I too am new to 'intersectional feminism' - I've never been actively involved in feminism until I started reading MN after babies. although reading widely since has shown I've always been a quite staunch second waver in outlook. I have been involved in campaigns that are about defending the rights of a racial group and have worked respectfully with people from that targeted minority - obviously they have set the agenda in the campaigns. To me that is right and natural.

My local mums facebook group has become awash with intersectional feminism/identity politics (the two go hand in hand) ideas, although no one actually seems to understand that it is ONE perspective. It is presented as universal and reasonable.

It all kicked off after a post was shut down because some nasty real racist snake posted a comment and an admin panicked and deleted the thread. Discussions afterwards attacked admin (a couple of fairly ignorant well meaning white women) for 'tone policing' and there was a lot of finger pointing, accusing admin of being the real enemy and racist. Forget the woman who posted the original offensive comment!

Some of the (intersectional) mums have flounced and set up their own group, because of the 'racism' on the mums group. The goals of the group state 'you must believe in intersectional feminism'.

I have been doing careful reading and have come to the conclusion that it is dangerous nonsense. I don't believe there is any feminist who would deny the basic concepts of intersectionality. On that everyone agrees. It is harder for BAME women, disabled women etc.

However to be an 'intersectional feminist' is something different. You need to subscribe to the idea that women who are discriminated against in society don't get leadership positions (true, they don't, this is fucked). So 'intersectional feminism' is about letting someone from a discriminated group become the group's (unspoken) leader and set the agenda. What they say goes. You are not allowed to question them on Tumblr Truths they say, or challenge them or seek clarification or even engage them in conversation. They are allowed to be rude and angry about inequality, their sycophantic sidekicks will tell you. You are not if you are a white feminist.

This is what's happened in my group anyway. The 'intersectional feminists' have been posting Everyday Feminism articles and telling mums they are racist if they are unaware of their structural advantages/white privilege. (I've argued that this makes the definition of racism so wide as to render it meaningless but apparently it's a vairy wide spectrum according to some pop culture viral article from America).

A whole lot of mums now are making public declarations lambasting themselves for having been racist but now see the light and want to acknowledge it. The 'intersectional feminists' who are pulling all the strings make 'Hallelujah praise the lord!' type sentiments and urge them to read more on Everyday Feminism.

I feel it is all a bit cultish. Identity politics is often criticised because there is no way of evaluating or checking the quality of the 'leader's' ideas. There was even an unpleasant interaction on the mums page where someone from a significantly disadvantaged minority (the self-appointed leader) questioned someone else who said they were from a minority and forced them to describe their appearance. Apparently this is not uncommon, as subaltern hierarchies need to be established, as the whole concept is hierarchical in nature.

I am rambling and incoherent sorry, have screaming baby, must go.

Here is one reason why intersectional feminism is totally fucked. According to this article, white feminists should support campaigns for halal cosmetics, and FGM is because of British colonialism. I'm usually the first to blame British colonialism for problems but I'm afraid I can't follow this argument. Do we listen to this line or do we take our leadership from Ayaan Hirsi Ali? everydayfeminism.com/2015/01/feminism-fails-muslim-women/

I would only be interested in why someone called me a white feminist if my accuser was a non-white feminist.
Yes, I agree as well.

Divide and conquer.

I do a lot of work with First Nations women and you'd better believe that I STFU and listen more than usual. However, if some bloke wants to silence women, let's call it what it is.

YY Prawn. My sentiments exactly. I was just about to post pretty much the same.

I would only be interested in why someone called me a white feminist if my accuser was a non-white feminist. I would want to understand and, hopefully, do better. When it comes to white men or TW, even other women, it just seems to stand for STFU, you stupid woman. I've heard online feminists tell other posters off for being "white feminists" and then further down it turns out that they are white feminists themselves. Mind you, they're usually very young and right on.