Not all women

Because they're entitled to have a say.

But when the subject under discussion is men, then men ought to be able to contribute to the views being expressed

Why?

But when the subject under discussion is men, then men ought to be able to contribute to the views being expressed. If you don't agree, maybe make representations to those that administer the site.

I personally don't believe men can or should be considered feminists and am quite happy to defend that view. When a man proclaims himself a feminist I am suspicious why he wouldn't be content to be known as an ally. He could do just as much good as an ally. It makes me think that he will try to take over and I worry the focus will be shifted away from issues which really matter to women in favour of centring issues men think are important (as I think we are seeing in liberal feminism).

I accept that other feminist women (I don't accept that men should have any say in it) feel differently and I understand they have good reasons for that. Also NAMALT, natch. I think this is largely a semantic issue anyway.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself well, Josef. My point was that you wouldn't expect to engage in debates on any specialist subject unless you too were equally well informed. It's rude and intrusive.

For whatever reason, men quite often pop up on Feminism Chat, a space in which feminists chat (crazy, huh?) and start either asking us to explain ourselves or giving us the benefit of their lofty insight. It's annoying.

There are other boards for discussion of theory. There's Feminist Theory and Feminist Activism. This is Feminist Chat and, yes, we generally do agree on basics, though there are a range of views. The one thing we do agree on is that life's too short to give Feminism 101 courses to sceptical blokes.

Well what is everyone complaining about then?

As I say, have a safe space, or have a discussion forum. A discussion forum will mean people disagreeing with you.

" but I would suggest it won't work here."

This board has been here a while. Think it's working ok. Perhaps I'll do a poll.

I feel a bingo card coming on.....

Prawn if I was taking part in a Marxism debate I certainly would be engaging in critical discussion with people. Although broadly on the left, I disagree with many views which come under that very broad umbrella. I wouldn't go on a Sikh forum because Sikhism does not concern me in any way and I would have absolutely nothing to say.

And anyway I am not opposed to feminism and am not sure what I have said that has given that impression. I have just diverged from others on certain points.

It seems like what many people want on here is not so much a discussion forum but a space in which everyone more or less agrees with one another. More of an online support group as it were.

Nothing wrong with that at all, but I would suggest it won't work here. These threads start with a question to which anyone with an email address can respond with a view. Inevitably there will be disagreements.

Who on earth are you talking to special? Apart from yourself?

Olennas I think men can be feminists but from numerous threads, particularly on Reddit, I know that mine is not a popular view. More than that, it's very much a minority view. I am also aware that many women have had terrible experiences with male violence, and haven't had positive experiences to balance that out.

I always have problems keeping my mouth zipped concerning NAMALT. My feminism is based on class analysis but my personal experience has been atypical. My DF has passionate feminist views. More than that. He says women are better people. In his view we should be in charge, men being more selfish and aggressive.

Unsurprisingly, my DBs also grew up pro feminist and I had the sense to marry a lovely man who became a SAHD while urging me on to start my own creative business. All these men love women's company while being loyal husbands.

I'm lucky. All - or nearly all - the men in my extended family like women. We all get on extremely well and none of has needed a divorce. My DPs, DBs and I have been married for 120+ years between us. So sometimes I find myself saying NAMALT, even though I know that it's silly.

It's not that I haven't had bad experiences. I've been raped twice, both times while travelling. This hasn't ruined my life as it does some women. I recovered well, largely because I was very clear that rape isn't sex and had my lovely male relatives to stand as a contrast.

I think it was the ROK link.

MRAs. They were out last night too

Trolls are trolling
They seem ok when the board is mainly trans threads but when other feminist stuff is posted they crop up with more or less subtle trolling
Infuriating

What the bloody hell is going on here tonight?

I don't entirely agree that "most feminists don't much care what men think about [feminism]" . I care, I just don't think that men's views get to trump women's views, or that we should shut and listen to them telling us what we are doing wrong (special's third para above being a great example of that). I also don't care if what feminists say or propose upsets men or requires them to accept some difficult truths (such as the fact that men as a class oppress women as a class).

But then I believe that men can be feminists, not allies, so I know I hold a different view to many other posters on FWR

YY to what Prawn says; also Joseph, given this is a feminism chat board, what is it that you hope to achieve here? Clearly not a greater understanding of what feminists think of the issue under discussion. No, you either seek to educate or to derail, otherwise why are you here?

Fair do, that will be me I guess.

Didn't realise feminism restricted views. Uni kiddy politics wasnt like that but obviously what is allowed has now changed. My mistake.

Probably why I won't join any women only organisation or support any women only events. Separitism and hate spread the other way doesn't help and destroys all that was fought for.

Josefk - I applaud you.

Joseph, this is indeed the internet but you are posting in the forum Feminism Chat. Would you turn up on a Sikh Discussion group, or a Marxism Debate thread and start telling regular participants that you knew better than them about their beliefs and understanding? You'd get short shrift if you tried.

I've noticed that men far too often just don't respect feminism as a political movement and an academic subject. Instead think they can just butt into feminist debate, tell us we're doing it wrong and expect women to justify themselves and spend time answering their interminable questions.

This is a place where we discuss feminism. Most feminists don't much care what men think about it. Sure, there are plenty of feminist allies, but men don't direct feminist thought. You are entirely within your rights to disagree with feminist principles and interpretation. We are just as entitled to carry on regardless.

I have seen the occasional man telling other men that their sexism is shit.

But not in an "not all women" way. "Not all women" is always about "Not all women object to my sexist shit".

What I conclude from this is that the average, non-political man does not feel a need to defend the women he loves (if there are any) against sexist statements - the men who do side with women do so because they have read about feminism and know how to identify sexism.

It does not seem to be an intuitive response for most men.

My experience seems to be different to most here. I often here men jumping in to tell other men it's "not on" when they are pontificating about women.
Also, I see a lot of men on twitter who call themselves feminists and seem to spend a lot of time arguing with trolls and getting called social justice warriors for their troubles.
So, I "hear" plenty of men saying "not all women".

Only ever heard 'some women' as in 'some women like watching porn/have no problem with lap dancing/are happy hookers.'

It seems that the only virtuous thing a woman can do, the one thing that will make her the example men like to refer to, is to lie down and let men walk all over her.

Then, she will be the praised exception. Well, perhaps not even praised. But brought up in conversation often.

"Only ever heard 'some women' as in 'some women like watching porn/have no problem with lap dancing/are happy hookers.'

That might be the case. Yeah there are sexist men who do that. Not denying that.

I'm not in a huff Assassinated at all, I assure you. Not a huffy person.