Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Domesticity and Femininity

61 replies

ISaySteadyOn · 31/01/2017 11:05

I should say right at the off that I struggle to reply to threads I start sometimes because I am dyspraxic and often only have my phone. I usually do read along so I don't disappear.

I've been thinking about this for a while, but this is the first time in that while that I have managed to grab the computer and not my phone. I was reading a book about the history of suburban architecture and interiors (I am a giant nerd) and I had to put it down due to the authors' snide little asides about women's attempts to make their homes prettier or more comfortable by making cushions or firescreens or blankets.

It made me think, there is a lot of underlying contempt for domesticity in general. Why is that? Why is wanting to make your home look and feel nice such a horrible thing to want? Is it because it is usually left to women to do it and anything women do is automatically frivolous and stupid even if it benefits people? Or is there a further underlying contempt for the feminine and domesticity comes under the umbrella of femininity?

I was also thinking about housework threads. It is often made out that housework is really easy and should be no bother to anybody. I don't find that it is and sometimes I feel almost unwomanly that I struggle to learn all the different bits. And does that fall within contempt for domesticity? I don't know. I'm just musing here. Anyone else have thoughts?

OP posts:
TheSmurfsAreHere · 31/01/2017 15:40

I think it's a bit more complex than that.
Art and practical aesthetics are actually very male orientated. Look at all the designers etc...
What is devalued is the art and craft. It might be the same object (let's say a tapestry on the wall) but when it's art and crafts and not art as such, it's seen as something done by someone who doesn't have particular talent, usually a bit idle, and with no great value.
Art on the other hand is seen as something with value and needing some particular skill to do it.

And YY we go back to what men do is worth and women do isn't.

Original poster
ISaySteadyOn · 31/01/2017 15:28

Also, I subscribe to the idea of practical aesthetics. Just because something is practical doesn't mean it can't be pretty. And I think that's where I was trying to get in my OP. There seems to be an idea that trying to make things pretty is somehow less real or snobbish or something. And it is mostly women who try.

OP posts:
Original poster
ISaySteadyOn · 31/01/2017 15:25

I think I would argue also that the practical can be personal. I wear skirts because I absolutely hate the feel of trousers and can't move in them at all whereas skirts are much easier for me. However, I wore uncomfortable trousers for years having internalised the sneering view of feminine trappings that Lass alludes to.

OP posts:
Pallisers · 31/01/2017 14:28

In previous times, it made a woman more marriageable if she knew how to spin, sew, knit, et cetera.

Well that marriageability was because a woman with those skills was more likely to be an equal partner in keeping the family fed, clothed, housed.

There is a constant devaluing/denial of the work women do.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 31/01/2017 14:16

I rather like some of the arts and crafts traditionally done by women, but am not interested in wearing overtly feminine (impractical) clothes. So I feel there is a difference.

Sneering at anything feminine or femininity doesn't help. Who decides what is practical or that "practical" is the only worthwhile determining feature.

AllMyBestFriendsAreMetalheads · 31/01/2017 13:26

Slightly OT, but I was watching a program once that talked about knitting being a very valued skill and an apprentice knitter would have to learn from a master for years and go and learn from other master knitters as well. And it was very much a male occupation.

It was only after industrialisation and knitting machines that there was no need for professional knitters anymore and it moved into being arts and crafts, which is presumably when it became a 'woman's thing'.

I struggle with housework. I'm great at cleaning stuff, because that was something I had to learn as a waitress and working in kitchens, but I really struggle with general day to day tidiness.

"Is it because it is usually left to women to do it and anything women do is automatically frivolous and stupid even if it benefits people?"

I'm not sure if it's just because women do it, or because it is perceived to be easy and therefore of less value. When the kids were younger, DH used to think that if he was the SAHP, he could easily entertain the children whilst keeping the house spotless and doing all the washing. But there is a big difference between doing it as a one off and doing it almost every day for x+ years. It's the monotony of doing it all that gets to me. And the fact that the housework is never finished, there's always something else.

HelenDenver · 31/01/2017 13:07

Yes, you are right.

VestalVirgin · 31/01/2017 12:52

I think there is a difference between domesticity and femininity as defined today.

In previous times, it made a woman more marriageable if she knew how to spin, sew, knit, et cetera.

Nowadays, those things are not very actively encouraged in women, but looking pretty is, which I think leads to a further erosion of women's self esteem - after all, if you know how to cook a good meal, or make yourself a nice cushion, that is good for your wellbeing AND self-esteem, but looking pretty is very subject to outside factors, and not within the individual's control.

I rather like some of the arts and crafts traditionally done by women, but am not interested in wearing overtly feminine (impractical) clothes. So I feel there is a difference.

Is it because it is usually left to women to do it and anything women do is automatically frivolous and stupid even if it benefits people?

I think that hits the nail on the head.

Original poster
ISaySteadyOn · 31/01/2017 11:33

We have gotten into patchwork at our house and I already do needlepoint which is what made me think of it.

Back on phone again so replies may be short or come slowly.

OP posts:
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 31/01/2017 11:33

Yes. It's part of the invisiblising of women's work.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 31/01/2017 11:24

... not really on topic - but hasn't there been a lot written about the arts and crafts movement, as well as other domestic arts (such as wallpaper design in the 60s and 70s and quilting), that make the point that these are devalued because they are women's activities? I recall Grayson Perry saying very similar about pottery and tapestry.

I'll have to think more about your very interesting deeper questions!