Debating With Arsehole Men: need a how-to guide!

I am also interested in any practical 'how-to' if anyone has any further advice or experiences. I have to deal with this crap daily at work.

I think you have to pick & choose your battles. You can't reason, with batshit

Agree with Venus and suspect we are going round in circles now

I think we've already had this discussion Josef. I was responding to a specific example where one might say male privilege was relevant to perception of fear.

I maintain that male privilege is a useful concept, as is class analysis.

"And men are violent to other men and to women. On a class level it's all male violence."

Yes, but not all of them are. You can state that overall men are more violent both to other men and other women. That is true. But you wouldn't approach any random individual man and accuse him of being violent would you?

Class politics always runs into problems when applied to individuals, because not all individuals conform to patterns of class behaviour. In fact, an awful lot of them don't do so.

Similiarly a lot of men are not privileged in any way. They are poor, homeless, unable to get a job.

Well if you'll allow to zoom out to the totality of just this online thread. Which is ostensibly supposed to be a guide to dealing with asshole men. It's useful if nothing else than a recognition that asshole men have primacy in some contexts and often women have to deal with that often from a position of disadvantage.

This whole thread has merit if only to boslster women to speak up and be more confidant. I'm all for it, but all of this centering on non-asshole men is kinda sort of privilege in action.

When men make stupid, ill though out remarks or do nasty things every fucking excuse in the world is rolled out: "he's of a certain generation", "it was a different time", "he's not as bad as men from

Which is I think what you were getting at. The point is that this is an element of male privilege, that they are not expected to modify their lives in the same way. And men are violent to other men and to women. On a class level it's all male violence.

Which is I think what you were getting at. The point is that this is an element of male privilege, that they are not expected to modify their lives in the same way. And men are violent to other men and to women. On a class level it's all male violence.

"Unfortunately in practice i find it usually ends up becoming a rather meaningless and superficial Oppression Olympics with the people who shout loudest on social media deciding who gets the title of "Most oppressed".

I think you're probably quite right in that observation. There are lots of oppressed people about these days.

That's just one view of the privilege men have. Men are not constantly told by society that they have a responsibility to avoid being attacked in the street by other men, and that they must think about all their actions with that possibility in mind, when they leave the house.

the weakness with the'walk without being raped' argument is that its very specific. men are far more likely tp be physically assaulted, maimed or killed walking alone than women. You could argue a privilege of being more successfully conditioned to accept prepare for or psychologically insulate against violence perhaps?

Yes, I am aware of that, Josef. Intersectionality is the concept of trying to examine where these different class issues overlap. It's a useful and necessary thing to do. Unfortunately in practice i find it usually ends up becoming a rather meaningless and superficial Oppression Olympics with the people who shout loudest on social media deciding who gets the title of "Most oppressed".

one of the main difficulties with 'privilege' is that the complexity is misunderstood and is mistakenly treated as though all men are privileged over all women when in favt working class men are very unprivileged conpared to old school white middleclass women

The view I take is that you can't educate someone. They have to be open and looking for learning about it themselves. It's pointless trying to 'debate' with someone who actually just wants to express their own rigid view. They don't really want a debate with you, they want a win.

Ots bollocks thay removing emotion makes a better argument..thats such a british/german male thing. ignoring emotion isnt an advanced skill ..its a restricted one like saying 'lets not talk about how consumers hate our company and hiw tgat affexts business..lets just sack some workers' area..its just ignoting a perpective because you are uncomfortable on its ground. .

but people who hate emotion are like people who hate music and peiple enjoying themself..they think no emotion is 'more right' in the same way dull people think imposing silence on neighbours is 'more right' than having them like music and friends.

Slug someone saying that women are dumb to fight rape and abuse is obviously not good at all.

I hope I'm not one of those 'dudes'.

Venusinscorpio I completely agree. Of course there are conservations where that privilege is very evident and relevant. If you're talking to an arrogant male company boss who is disparaging feminist campaigns to close the pay gap, it would be totally justified to bring his attention to the male chauvinist privilege he is displaying.

I also think male privilege can be demonstrated by very poor, disadvantaged men. And it can be totally justified to call that out.

But it can get a bit complicated to measure the respective privilege of two people when factors like class and race come into play.

Hilary Clinton does have more privilege overall than a man living under an underpass; but arguably she has less privilege than another male politician within her sphere.

Want a good definition of privilege Josef?

I find most conversations end up here

It's arguably problematic in some conversations, but there will be others where structural privilege or lack of it is very relevant and it's perfectly reasonable to expect someone to listen to others who do not have the particular structural privilege before they jump in with their own opinions.

I see what you're all saying.

I don't know. I think all I'm saying is to be wary of personalizing macro issues when communicating with individuals.

The statement 'men have the privilege of going for a solitary walk without the fear of being raped' is fine, as is 'men have the privilege of more oppprtunities for advancement in the computer industry'. But to assert that all men are more privileged than all women in a very non-specific sense does seem problematic.

Well none of the men who post here (myself included), have any problem advancing and sticking to an opinion, so I feel little fear of marginalizing a man with crippling self esteem issues. I doubt a feminist board on a parenting site will find many wandering, so it seems at least to me a safe place for class analysis.

Otherwise your posts have the vague hint of concern trolling. Counter intuitively perhaps but amongst young people more males than females identify as feminist these days, so winning men over doesn't seem to be a problem. If feminism has an image problem it's not actually with men but with other women.

His male privilege is that he doesn't understand how a particular element of being a woman feels, therefore his understanding of it is limited. It generally has nothing to do with any other aspect of his life. Where it does, obviously there is room for debate.

It's not "men in a very general sense", it's men as a class. It's a class analysis. As I said it is one way of examining an issue which disproportionately or exclusively affects a certain sector of the population.

What male privilege does a man who is poor and unemployed and mentally unwell have? How would that privilege manifest itself?

Dervel: this is my point. Talking about an individual man and men in a very general sense is the crucial distinction to make.

No one here was suggesting telling him to "check his privilege". I think you'll find that I said exactly the opposite. However the fact that he may be disadvantaged in other ways does not mean that his male privilege is not an issue when he talks to women about things which primarily affect women as a class.