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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BMA Advice about Pregnant People

89 replies

DaddaGreen · 29/01/2017 09:23

The BMA has issued advice to doctors that the term "expectant mother's" is excusionary & the term "pregnant people" should be used instead. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4167632/Don-t-call-pregnant-patients-mothers.html?ito=twitter_share_article-factbox#mol-a3f41b20-e5a4-11e6-9817-45bcc625c5e7

I'm a man. Probably the defining part of "living as a man" is that I can't give birth to kids. Can anyone explain how you can have severe enough body dysmorphia to be triggered by this but not to decide to carry a baby to term?

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 03/02/2017 01:55

I followed the link to Womens Hour and wish I could unhear it - very sad day for mothers

That is a huge exaggeration.The person being interviewed, whose name I can't remember was a precious, raging narcissist and goodness knows what was going on in his head, but it was quite clear he was talking about himself.

He wasn't demanding the term "pregnant people" be used unilaterally or that "motherhood" should not be used. He even said "assigned female at birth" is a ridiculous expression.

MiddleGround · 03/02/2017 00:36

seafoodeatit: I followed the link to Womens Hour and wish I could unhear it - very sad day for mothers

venusinscorpio · 02/02/2017 23:47

Freddy, I mean. The transman who obviously is biologically female and fooling absolutely no one.

venusinscorpio · 02/02/2017 23:46

If he's a man why the fuck is it relevant to Women's Hour? Talk about have your cake, eat it and then have it again.

seafoodeatit · 02/02/2017 23:35

Did anyone listen in to women's hour? I'm not sure I can bring myself to listen to it anymore, feeling so angry and despondent this evening!

bbc.in/2l04hmN

MiddleGround · 02/02/2017 23:27

Cool Jazz

Loved this line:
Also everyone who gives birth is a woman. A woman is an adult human female, how do the BMA define woman? You seem to have to great lengths to define trans gender people, could we please have a definition of woman in your literature please.'

MiddleGround · 02/02/2017 23:24

Does this mean that we will have to say:

Former pregnant persons day instead of Mothers Day?
Former pregnant person in law instead of mother-in-law?

I could go on but I think you get my drift?

Datun · 01/02/2017 19:07

Allison Pearson is someone I rarely agree with. However she has lambasted this initiative in the Telegraph today. Calling it grotesque and loopy and concluding with 'not on your nellie, mate'.

She adds "when things we instinctively know to be wrong are rebranded as progress, we should not keep an embarrassed silence".

She has a transgender MtT friend.

The redefinition of the the word 'woman' seems to have slipped under the radar for a lot of people, but erasing the word 'mother' is going to whip the lid off the pandora's box in no mean terms.

Datun · 30/01/2017 21:45

CoolJazz

That was a good reply. I wonder if they will respond. I can't quite remember, but I think they also talked about being assigned a gender at birth? (I've read so many links lately it may not be them).

And of course you are quite right, it really doesn't matter to whom they are directing this newspeak. The very fact there is only one transman giving birth in this country is sufficient to object.

Linen · 30/01/2017 21:33

I might prefer the word 'woman' but ffs, even 'afab' (assigned female at birth) would be better and more accurate than 'people', with the idea that really, any pregnant person could be a man or woman and the implication that there is no longer any such thing as a nameable group of humans of the sex capable of getting pregnant. For all I dislike and disagree with the expression, at least it would be replacing one word (woman) with another (afab) rather than simply removing the word 'woman' and not replacing it with anything at all, which is what seems to be happening at the moment.

thecraftyfox · 30/01/2017 21:01

I Keep laughing at Svulvathorpe. I assume Penistone will remain unchanged or is it Ladysticktone?

BakeOffBiscuits · 30/01/2017 20:45

Do tell us if they come back to you Cool. They really don't get it do they?

CoolJazz · 30/01/2017 19:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 30/01/2017 19:26

The DM has a critical piece in it today by Sarah Vine. Whether you think it is a rag or not, she has totally got it.

She ends with: "...and yet here it is, demonstrating clear bias and partisanship towards one side of the argument and, with one inane and sweeping statement, removing a pregnant woman's hitherto inalienable right to call herself an expectant mother".

She also talks about how much it costs to have gender reassignment surgery (£29k - although actually I thought it was more than that). Something that will strike outrage into the hearts of many a Daily Mail reader.

Datun · 30/01/2017 18:41

She said the guidance is for language to be used between Drs and not for language to be used to patients.

I don't understand the point of that at all. If it's the patient who is going to feel offended by any of this what on earth is the point of 'saying all the right things' amongst yourselves if you're not going to use the same language to the patient?

VestalVirgin · 30/01/2017 15:36

Doctors know that only women get pregnant, so they can say "pregnant women". If talking to a trans patient, they can humour them by using male pronouns, but why should they make life harder for themselves by doing this kind of nonsense talk with each other?

There's a problem with "expectant mother" as it could also refer to a woman who wants to adopt, and not apply to a woman who did not want to get pregnant and decided to give the baby up for adoption.
(Not a problem when doctors talk to each other, but I would understand if it was recommended to not use this on leaflets and the like that patients can see.)

Bambambini · 30/01/2017 13:55

They mentioned it briefly in the Wright Stuff this morning. Guest Scott Capurro, a gay comedian from a the US seemed trans critical and alluded to the trans critics of the womens march going on about certain sections of woman hood being divisive.

CoolJazz · 30/01/2017 12:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

babyboomersrock · 30/01/2017 11:28

I heard the last couple of minutes of Woman's Hour - this piece was a 5-minute slot before the drama.

Think the interviewee was from www.transgendertrend.com/ - organisation for parents questioning the trans narrative.

Must catch it later so I can email Woman's Hour.

tribpot · 30/01/2017 10:57

I think Svulvathorpe sounds nicer than Scunthorpe anyway - and has the advantage of sounding a bit Russian for when Putin's tanks roll in. Like St Petersburg/Leningrad, I see Scunthorpe being renamed Svulvathorpe (Svulvasgrad?) in due course.

BakeOffBiscuits · 30/01/2017 10:54

This has just been discussed On Womens Hour. I didn't catch the start so am not sure who was talking about it. She said the guidance is for language to be used between Drs and not for language to be used to patients.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 30/01/2017 10:03

Very quick Google tells me that there are 151,000 BMA members out of 230,000 doctors registered to practice. I know a lot of doctors don't bother. As I recall the main/only benefits are the British Medical Journal (BMJ) and the BMA magazine, which are both good reads but not good enough to justify a fairly hefty subscription.

Datun · 30/01/2017 09:37

Poppyred85

I didn't know that. Do you know what percentage of doctors are members?

Poppyred85 · 30/01/2017 09:21

Just to clarify a point, not all doctors are BMA members (I'm not, never have been, never will be) and we are not bound by any rules to follow their guidance on this.

roseshippy · 30/01/2017 02:34

"Nowhere does it say that doctors cannot refer to pregnant women."

Yes, yes it does. Doctors are members of the BMA, and it says:

"This guidance should be applied to all forms of communication, including conversations, committee papers, documents, letters, emails and the website. Anything that we produce reflects the association and it is vital that all our communications are free from discriminatory language, or what could be interpreted as discriminatory language."

The Quick Reference Guide is very clear. E.g.,:

"Use the correct term for the impairment. Avoid terms that are now considered offensive. If it is necessary to refer to a person’s impairment or condition, check with the individual how they wish it to
be described."

Instead of

"Spastic
Mongol
Mentally handicapped"

Use

"Person with cerebral palsy
Person with Down’s syndrome
Person with learning difficulties"

And below that

"Don’t use phases that are reductive and overly-simplify a complex subject. A person’s sex is determined by a number of factors."

Instead of

"Biologically male/female
Genetically male/female
Born and man/woman"

Use

"Assigned male/female at birth
Designated male/female at birth"

And
"Be careful when describing the personal process of gender reassignment. "

Instead of

"Sex change/sex change operation
Pre-operative
Post-operative"

use

"Transition
Referring to a sex-change operation, or using terms such as pre-operative or post-operative inaccurately suggests that one must have surgery in order to transition."

And

"A large majority of people that have been pregnant or have given birth identify as women. However, there are some intersex men and trans men who may get pregnant. "

Instead of

"Expectant mothers"

Use

"Pregnant people"

It's hard to take entirely seriously, I LOLed at this one:

"Surname is not unacceptable. However, this word may originate from sire-name, or the name derived from one’s father."

This is fucking bollocks. Is there someone in a room somewhere making up alternative sexist definition for words? Where do these idiots come up with this shit?

'Menstruation' - this is a sexist term because it contains 'men'

'Scunthorpe' - offensive, please use 'Svulvathorpe'

Actual etymology 'Old French surnom, from sur, 'on' + noum, 'name', and from the Latin.

Also

"The term ‘last name’ should not be used as it could be confusing to Asian groups who place their family name first."

Instead of
"Christian name
Surname
Last name"

Use

"First name, given name, forename or personal
Family name (preferred term)"

So how the fuck is 'last name' confusing but 'first name' is a.ok? Stupid, stupid, stupid. And how is asking someone their 'personal' not confusing?

So it is DISCRIMINATORY to refer to a pre-operative transsexual, even though it's a relevant concern whether someone has a penis or not, and NOT discriminatory for women (sorry persons with vaginas) to have share their space.

It's also discriminatory to talk about pregnant mothers, even though in biology (surely an important subject for the BMA), 'mother' has a rather narrow meaning not altered by any 'transition'.