BMA Advice about Pregnant People

Never too old, MiddleGround. I'm an antique myself.

PS Prawn I think I might be becoming a feminist at age 59 - too old for this type of stuff?

Prawn thanks for the links - will look when I reassemble the disaster where my brain once resided :)

Oh, I know I am any manner of -ists, that is my cross to bear and you must give me special consideration otherwise I feel violated and may cry.

Prawn, I am sure you are lovely, whatever you look like.

Rightly or wrongly every society ever in the history of humans living together has notions of 'normal' and anything looks- or behaviour wise straying from that 'normal' attracts attention and, sadly, often negative attention. Counter-acting that is what IMO efforts should be concentrating on, not somehow trying to re-define the meaning of words or telling me or anybody else what our relationship to make-up should be.

The one transperson I have a RL (working) relationship with is as complex a person as any other person, with good and bad character traits, good and bad days, and more or less functional coping mechanisms. They are very very at the trans activist movement and do not feel represented by this madness.
I know that is only one person, and one person living in relatively tame provincial suburbia, but in many ways I would have thought it must make life harder for them because they cannot 'hide' in amongst more bohemian life in the Big City.

You do know that expressing a distaste for make up is cis sexist, Pacific? Only cis gendered women can pass as women without make up, you see. By refusing to wear it you are committing real violence against TW and may be responsible for several deaths.

You're right. You're going to have to identify as a man.

Sez me who, make up or no make up, couldn't be mistaken for a TW (or a man) even if I was wearing a 3 man tent.

It's so depressing.
I totally nodded along to the statement about facts and science and common sense going out of the window. Transhysteria is going to be my new phrase; I've already taking a note of trans-peaking.
Sigh.

I wear the husband's lynx sometimes and use mens shower gel. My youngest son was admiringly stroking my very hairy legs last night and was super impressed (always been very tactile) - i'm so doomed.

I actually know my chromosomes and while defective am definitely endowed with XX
But I do like to wear trousers, intensely dislike fucking hate make-up, have a deeper than average voice and have in an hour of need worn DH's y-fronts AND did not dislike it - I fear I may need to identify as male, don't I?

I wonder what the men in the toilets in my local ASDA would make of me?

Oh no, MiddleGround, thanks but I'm by no means alone. There are loads of us on MN. It's one of the forums online where women are allowed to discuss this transhysteria. If you're relatively new, you might not have seen the "I am Spartacus" threads in August last year when more than 900 posters came forward to be counted. I expect you know the story of the Roman slave, Spartacus? Well, it was a reference to that. I found it inspirational. I know we're not supposed to talk about a thread in another thread, but there is a good reason in this case. Worth a look.

If you'd like other forums, I'd encourage you to explore Reddit GenderCritical and Gender_Critical. I don't know why there are two groups with such similar names.

What defies logic is the burly very male looking TW or Transvestite who spoke on the Big Question tv show at the weekend -who with a straight face said that he couldn't use the mens loos in Asda because it might make the men uncomfortable (they'd been challenged by security). And the audience said nothing - apart from a few noises of support.

Prawn - love your response, refreshingly dare I say it "normal" - in the world of transhysteria (just made that one up at as it seems the trendy thing to do at the moment) I thought I was the only sane person left in the world

"Put aside logic and science"? And they claim to be feminists.

I'm still waiting to be asked about my chromosomes, my reply being that having borne two DC I can be cheerfully confident that I have a fully functioning female reproductive system.

A lot of these idiots are very very young and inexperienced. They genuinely think people can't know what sex they are without medical tests, maternity and paternity not being something they've come across yet. They may not realise they need feminism until they have DC themselves. I know that is true of lots of women.

I wish they'd take on board the simple fact that, regardless of 50+ genders and the repeated assertion that sex isn't a binary, or even a fact, that every single one of the billions of people who have ever lived had a mother and a father.

Yes, lets all put aside logic and science. What a completely marvellous idea.

So in an effort to understand the transagenda, I phoned a local feminist group in the hope of gaining some clarification. What a waste of time that was, I was told to "put aside logic and science" and that "I wasn't ready to hear it yet". Anyone know of any groups that have common sense?

The suicide claims are piffle. There's a good analysis here.

middle

The suicide rate does not appear to be affected by having surgery. However, I believe and prawn might correct me if I'm wrong, that although surgery did alleviate certain symptoms of dysphoria, the general level of depression and distress remained the same. Indicating that there are other things going on.

As far as I remember it was a self completing survey (obviously as they were still alive), it was a small sample, it was not followed up and none of the claims verified. Even the authors of the survey thought that the respondents had include self harming rather than actual suicide attempts.

If the percentage of attempted suicides was successful at the same rate as non-trans-suicides you would be seeing one transgender teen killing themselves a week in the U.K. More than two a week in the US.

Bambambini I gave up after I got a headache banging my head against a brick wall so I went off to find a suitable quote instead:

"But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought." George Orwell

Have they asked you yet if you've had you're chromosomes tested? So how do you know you are a woman? That'always a "aha, gotcha!" favourite.

I didn't want to offend by posting the horrid stuff but just wanted to illustrate the type of nonsensical arguments/discussion points raised xx

Well some of this is plain wrong. The American system stopped funding SRS because it doesn't alleviate dysphoria, and John Hopkins, one of the top American hospitals, stopped doing it because the suicide rate dropped in the first little while after SRS and then bounced right up again.

There's also the issue that SRS itself is rare. Only 20% of TW have it. And about 75% of TW are sexually attracted to women. These are further issues.

When arguing with people on this issue, it help to have lots of links to research, reports, etc. You could flatten your opponent's claims. But, tbh, I wouldn't bother arguing with abusive activists (why put yourself through it?) unless there are other people watching. Never underestimate lurkers. I can't count the times when we've had debates on trans issues here and a poster has popped up to say she's been following the debate and now knows exactly why the feminists think it's so important. So sometimes it's worth arguing because of what it tells onlookers, and it's surprising how often there are onlookers online.

What you've posted isn't what I'd call abusive, though.

PrawnofthePatriachy This is a sample of a recent exchange with a particularly active individual - a conversation with several people:

SG Thank you all for your input. Allow me to clarify some points.

There is no denying that there are people who feel or wish they were the opposite gender than what they were born as. Such people exist and their concerns/conditions need to be addressed and treated. Additionally, there is no denying that some people have an actual genetic mutation which means they are not typical genetic males or females - however most transgender people do not fall into this category. These things being said, the question is HOW to treat these disorders. The answer to that must be arrived at via evidence-based medicine. Emotions, feelings, political correctness, etc. are not the determinants of medical diagnoses nor of the treatments for said diagnoses. Proper scientific research MUST be the source of our approach to treating these and any other disorders. Unfortunately, many have allowed their emotions to dictate their approach and others have been coerced by societal pressures. Gender disorders must be approached scientifically just as anything else in medicine.

JL how is sexual reassignment surgery and living as their preferred gender not evidence-based though?
The suicide risk in trans people decreases after transitioning and surgery often helps alleviate any dysphoria.
How does that not constitute as evidence?

JY And there we have it - the transition or suicide card - that is just so not good

JL gender is a social construct.
Sex is determined by biology, gender is an identity.
So I don't know why everyone keeps arguing that people can't be transgender when gender is not something palpable in the first place.

JY "So I don't know why everyone keeps arguing that people can't be transgender when gender is not something palpable in the first place." so if gender doesn't exist (isn't palpable) by your logic then transgender doesn't exist either - either way it is a circular argument

I'm sorry to hear that, Middle. It can get very nasty very quickly. Without much in the way of fact or logic to support their position, trans activists rely on abuse and threats.

Daten totally with you there - I am currently being attacked on Facebook for daring to question the transgender narrative - am in total shock at the level of hatred and vitriol from individuals who seems to wish to stifle debate and are unable to counter arguments so resort to personal attacks

MiddleGround

Exactly. Sometimes it can take a while, but from what I have seen, when it hits, it has the impact of a sledgehammer.

Datun thanks - basically when common sense prevails and rational people can see through the BS?