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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can anyone suggest why girls at 6 change their view of girls' ability to be brilliant?

238 replies

Italiangreyhound · 28/01/2017 20:33

Can anyone suggest why girls at 6 change their view of girls' ability to be brilliant?

Just that?

What's the cause?

www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jan/26/girls-believe-brilliance-is-a-male-trait-research-into-gender-stereotypes-shows

OP posts:
HelenDenver · 04/02/2017 09:12

... and equally, a truck may not be perceived by the user as anything to do with roads/construction either.

Plenty of kids chuck their teddy or doll into a truck to pull about.

Xenophile · 04/02/2017 09:06

ItsNotEasy

Not sure I understand, are you saying that children aged 1-5 focus their attention on looks?

Datun · 04/02/2017 08:56

italian

Datun I kind of think that women (girls) more than men (boys) look for human connection

It's an interesting one. It would make sense from a biological point of view that females responded to human-like toys from a maternal viewpoint. There are going to be some hard wired biological reasons.

There was an interesting study years ago where a number of people were asked to draw a bike. When the drawings were collected, everyone had drawn a bike but a significant proportion of those drawn by women had a person sitting on it. Those drawn by men were just the bike. Women see 'faces' in curtain patterns and clouds, etc.

I think the problem arises when any of these preferences are considered gender specific, because that's what women do, rather than that's what women feel.

It's a subtle difference, but one which is then exploited by socialisation.

So, females looking for faces and human contact = women! stay at home forever raising a brood of children!

I still think the truck thing is bollocks, though. The male monkeys werent interested in the person-like toy so took the next available option, by default.

Itisnoteasybeingdifferent · 04/02/2017 08:34

Can someone please explain how someone can become brilliant when they and most of their peer group focus their attention on looks?

HelenDenver · 04/02/2017 08:05

Also it is a matter of perception with some experiments. A buggy is a wheeled toy just as a truck is. A buggy is a better toy because it can carry more than a truck. A buggy is a worse toy because it is more likely to tip over than a truck. A buggy may not be perceived by the user as a baby doll related toy at all!

HelenDenver · 04/02/2017 08:03

What a fabulous post, Italian.

I'm very much on the side of most things being nurture/socialisation, rather than nature/innate, because (a) socialisation is so damn strong but invisible, often and (b) we can never have an "unsocialised" experimental environment, so it's unknowable.

I can come up with a theory why weaker animals need to be aware of the faces of stronger animals, to read for warnings of violence or pursuit, of course. Then I want to know if the monkey experiment was done later, with all males, once a "pecking order" was established. As was posted upthread with charts, the variation within a sex may or may not be wider than the variation between. Etc.

Italiangreyhound · 04/02/2017 04:27

Ooopse, I meant to say thanks so much for all the comments, sorry to take so long to get back on and read the thread!

The comments I just made about human babies and monkeys and looking for faces was that maybe females are somehow inately programmed to look for faces. I had a weird experience when dd was little, I fell asleep with her and when I woke up I kind of instincly looked for her and the first thing I found was like a cushion with a round 'face-shape' on it. So my eyes even in the semi darkness and feeling abit groggy were looking for my baby and looking for her face! I was so weird and disconcerting and of course I quickly found the real baby!

AssassinatedBeauty I am with you, I am 100% female too! But also like to defy 'gender' sterotypes. Trying to work out what is innate and what is not is actually so helpful. I used to feel I had to struggle with heavy objects or smoke cigars to be equal to men! How crazy is that!

Cakingbad "I believe it is now understood that you live longer if you have a female GP and outcomes are better for female physicians across the board." Yay, we have a female GP, she is excellent. So pleased to hear this! But then again, why! It seems to be because they listen to the patient more. So that is not, I think necessarily at all innnate, so all doctors could be better if they followed this.

But I was really unclear about the androgens. What was the significance of that.

Re Testosterone. This is interesing evidencebasedparent.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/the-myth-of-toddler-testosterone-surge.html

Morphene your comments at Fri 03-Feb-17 13:25:01 are excellent.

You are teaching me Latin, how great! Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

Must go to bed, thanks for engaging. I thought this thread would not go anywhere but you have all proved me wrong! Smile

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 04/02/2017 02:57

KateAdiesEarrings Very interesting.

"italian I wonder if it's related to maturity. Studies have shown girls mature earlier than boys and this impacts on how they process their environment.* If they're maturing into a patriarchal society, it follows that their perception of both their abilities and their achievements will gradually wane. It would be interesting to see if the results were replicated in matriarchal societies."

That sounds like girls brains will mature more quickly (I can understand that and can maybe see an developmental reason for the survival of our species!) and the realization that society is imbalanced will dawn on girls earlier. Is that it?

Which matriarchal societies are you thinking of?

The monkey study seemed to find something about males but not about females.

"In humans, studies have shown that boys gravitate strongly to stereotypically "masculine" toys such as trucks and other vehicles, while girls are less rigid, spending relatively equal amounts of time playing with boy-favored toys and with more traditionally "feminine" toys such as dolls. One hypothesis put forward to explain this difference has been that boys face greater societal discouragement when they play with "girl toys" than girls do in the reverse situation. The researchers figured that by looking at rhesus monkeys, who don't face comparable social pressures to conform to gender roles, they might be able to illuminate biological influences on toy selection as well.

In their study, the researchers compared how 34 rhesus monkeys living in a single troop interacted with human toys categorized as either masculine or feminine. The "masculine" set consisted of wheeled toys preferred by human boys (e.g., a wagon, a truck, a car, and a construction vehicle); the "feminine" set was comprised of plush toys comparable to stuffed animals and dolls (e.g., a Raggedy-Annâ„¢ doll, a koala bear hand puppet, an armadillo, a teddy bear, and a turtle). Individual monkeys were released into an outdoor area containing one wheeled toy and one plush toy, with the researchers taping all interactions using separate cameras for each toy, identifying all specific behaviors, and statistically analyzing the results.

The results closely paralleled those found in human children. As with human boys, male rhesus monkeys clearly preferred wheeled toys over plush toys, interacting significantly more frequently and for long durations with the wheeled toys. Also mirroring human behavior, female rhesus monkeys were less specialized, playing with both plush and wheeled toys and not exhibiting significant preferences for one type over the other."

La the study with monkey is great. Datun I kind of think that women (girls) more than men (boys) look for human connection. So are female children or monkeys more likely to be attracted to faces? I guess I believe the majority of this is socialization but with the monkeys then that throws a potential curve ball.

(Assuming the study is sound)

No one seems to have picked up on my "Give the monkeys a truck designed to look like a baby and a baby designed to look like a truck! See who goes for what. Simple!"

But that was a serious suggestion.Although almost impossible to do unless specially made but I easily found...

Toy trucks with faces...

www.amazon.co.uk/Tonka-Chuck-Friends-Handy-Truck/dp/B003UWQL1M?tag=mumsnetforum-21

And dolls which have no eyes or other facial features.

uk.pinterest.com/valeriesengupta/motanka-dolls-of-russia/

I wonder which toy would attract male or female babies or female or male monkeys.

It would be interesting to see.

OP posts:
Morphene · 04/02/2017 00:52

I wonder how far you can get with kids just by reframing every stereotype.

When they say 'boys do X' You say 'some boys do X' and repeat ad infinitum.

RebelRogue · 03/02/2017 21:53

I've said this before but here it goes.
Dd has come home from school with sexist stuff. Strangely enough it's against boys and all about what boys can't do; wear hairclips,have long hair,play princesses etc. I keep telling her there's no such thing as boy things and girls thing. Everyone can do and wear whatever they like. Luckily,she hasn't had it turn against her yet, as i asked her how would she feel if someone told her she couldn't be an astronaut because she's a girl and only boys can be one. She promptly replied "That's ok I'll just be a lady astronaut". It honestly doesn't occur to her (yet) that her gender comes with (social) limitations. As far as she's concerned she can be whatever she wants to be. A chef and builder in her spare time last time i checked GrinGrin

RebelRogue · 03/02/2017 21:47

Topic at school is space. Kids have learned a lot about it. They also went to the science museum this week and part of it was a film about people on the ISS with female crew included. A lot less women than men but they were there,on camera(with a lot more "air time"). Talking today in class and i mentioned men and women going into space. Blank faces. Have women been into space?! Nooo... oh yeah Yuri Gagarin. She was a woman wasn't she?

FACEPALM!

HelenDenver · 03/02/2017 21:00

I know o always plug it, but "a mighty girl" is good for recommendations.

HelenDenver · 03/02/2017 20:59

Sucks, doesn't it, 3?

3luckystars · 03/02/2017 20:57

My daughter is 6 and lately keeps asking "why aren't women heroes in films" etc. I keep trying to give her examples but she keeps coming up with more things where men saved the day.

Xenophile · 03/02/2017 20:53

And that's why books like Sandi Toksvig's Girls are Best are so valuable because unlike the traditional histories they put female achievements front and centre.

HelenDenver · 03/02/2017 20:44

..which I'm sure helps shape a worldview.

HelenDenver · 03/02/2017 20:43

Meanwhile, back on topic...

At DD's school, they did a big thing three years ago on aviation and were keen to stress that people used to be silly and think women couldn't fly planes etc and discussed Amelia Earhart and things. But if this isn't done actively, c95% of the "archive" pictures of planes would have male pilots.

HelenDenver · 03/02/2017 20:39

Who knows the song "Seventy Six Trombones"?

You hum and I'll play.

Datun · 03/02/2017 20:37

I'm saying you shouldnt suggest a perspective IS male unless the person expressing it is male.

I disagree.

Jmslvlc990 · 03/02/2017 20:34

Think you mean theories of reference and truth. Sounds like your a bit rusty. Maybe you should take a refresher. It's a while since I did logic but it formed large parts of my Bachelors , Masters and doctorate.
Take the following statement concerning the mathematical expression X=B;
"If X=B then I have a right to say B=X"
There is no mention of a 'right' to say something in maths (which I also have a degree in) but never the less, the statement above is True. And understandable. And makes perfect sense. And is correct. As is everything else I've said. And I have always suspected the dalai lama was Catholic.

Xenophile · 03/02/2017 20:34

JML, your perspective is male.

Prove me wrong with your giant logic. And without any of the many logical fallacies you have already attempted.

Or don't. I know how busy you say you are.

M0stlyHet · 03/02/2017 20:13

Hmm, let's see - on the logic syllabus I used to teach.

Axiom systems
Soundness and completeness of 0th and 1st order logic.
Incompleteness theorem for 2nd order logic.
Non-classical logics (modal, dialetheic...)
Theories of truth and reference.

yup, tick to all of those.

"right to say something..."

Not so much.

Take your testicles of objectivity elsewhere, mate. (Yes, I realise there is a chance that you are not a man. After all, as we all know the great thing about the internet is "no one knows you're a dog..." But I reckon there's about as much chance of you turning out to be female as there is of the Pope turning out to be the next Dalai Lama).

Hits the SGM "virtual hide poster" button.

HelenDenver · 03/02/2017 20:09

Well put, sillage

sillage · 03/02/2017 20:08

"Males provide the best and worst exams of humanity."

Men put women in cages then brag about how much further you can roam in all directions when not caged.

HelenDenver · 03/02/2017 19:50

Jmsl.

I am a woman. Are you, then?