Can anyone suggest why girls at 6 change their view of girls' ability to be brilliant?

Hi all, just read the thread. I'm another one who would strongly recommend Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine, a fascinating book and super well researched. I'm not a scientist though so I do think my ability to evaluate scientific studies is a bit limited but DH is a scientist so I use him sometimes to check the reliability of studies if I'm unsure haha. But one thing I've remembered that I'm pretty sure I read in that book, going back to PP who said what would happen if there was a "neutral" toy option for the monkeys (or children) in toy preference studies. Actually I can't remember if it was in that book or in a documentary I once watched. But anyway there was a very famous study (I'm really sorry I know this isn't worth much as I can't remember who did it or anytihng like that so I guess you will all have to take with a pinch of salt) I think in America where a fella set up a toy preference experiment and showed that little boys always picked trucks or something "masculine" and little girls always picked dolls or something feminine. The problem was that initially the first time he ran his study he actually included some kind of toy building game as the "masculine" option but he had to re-run his study to reach the objective he wanted (lol) because when the building game was the "masculine" toy what actually happened was that the vast majority of both boys and girls picked that toy. And I agree that is more significant than a car/truck toys as saying boys are innately more interested in cars is a really weird proposition considering they are such a recent invention. But it seems boys and girls are jointly both equally interested in building things.

True.

But why would that lead to a perception change at 6? There is more time spent in the home pre-school, or with a childcarer who is mostly likely to be female.

I've never met anyone like that PP describes either.
But I suspect that in many households, children do see women overwhelmingly doing the mind-numbingly tedious chores (afaik this is still statistically true). Even if both parents are doing equally 'brilliant' jobs (though again, mothers are still more likely than fathers downshift to some extent), that won't necessarily be what the kids see.

I mean, DH and I both work, but the DCs only see us at home, doing chores, chivvying homework etc.

Errol

Possibly, but my argument was specifically about the women referred to by PP who were apparently displaying only shopping, make up and babytalk behaviours to six year old girls.

Any men seen by those six year old girls would also likely be teachers, doctors, parents or parents of friends, and getting on with their jobs/chores in the context of a six year old observing them.

Do car magazines have women on the front? Gardening?

No.

They have cars and plants on them.

Google "car magazines" of the dozen or so first examples only 1 had any human being- and it had a man and a women.


Gardening magazines have gardens and flowers. A few had inset pictures of people- there were more women than men.

What is your point? Of course a specialist magazine is going to have pictures of its specialist subject on the cover.

Which of these do you think spends all their time shopping for clothes and talking about babies?! As opposed to getting on with their jobs or household chores?

Observing that its more often their mum rather than dad doing the dull chores seems to me to be even more corrosive of perceptions of 'brilliance' than concerns about appearance.

Also, it's role model

Oh Helen I was so tempted to say that.

I think the beauty thing affects physical abilities. it's harder to harder to climb in a skirt etc

I am so bored of the "climbing tree" holy grail on MN. And no it is not hard to climb a tree wearing a skirt. Nor is it hard to climb a climbing frame in a play ground.

Oh, goddess, someone told Lass it was harder to climb in a skirt...

Also, it's role model

But if you go into any newsagents (which my kids love to do = sweets!) There are racks of magazines presenting silences beautiful and sexual people

I very much doubt a 6 year old buying sweets is going to be even notice the latest edition of Vogue. Most newsagents in any case have dozens of magazines for all sorts of interests. I am not convinced a 6 year old is going to notice the type of magazine you are referring over say comics, pet care or car magazines.

Yy Hedgehog.

"What roll model does a 6yo see? Women who concentrate on looks and beauty. Women who spend time doing makeup. Women who go shopping for clothes. Women talking about babies."

Bollocks. Six year old girls will see their mothers, their teachers (likely to be majority female in most primaries), mothers of their friends, doctors.

Which of these do you think spends all their time shopping for clothes and talking about babies?! As opposed to getting on with their jobs or household chores?

Bit of a tangent, but one thing which fascinated me when DS was a toddler was that he used his toy cars to explore social interaction. Either they were being played with by imaginary people (his bedtime game used to involve allocating cars to his friends at nursery - I could always tell who was "best friend" at the time because they got his favourite car) or the cars were people (he had a wonderful tea party in the dolls' house with toy cars, then when a truck arrived, the cars quickly decided to change the indoor tea party into an outdoor barbecue so the truck could join in ).

I'd be interested to know if the people doing these studies have ever looked at the actual games being played rather than simply "child X is playing with stereotypically male/female toy..."

What roll model does a 6yo see? Women who concentrate on looks and beauty. Women who spend time doing makeup. Women who go shopping for clothes. Women talking about babies

All women ? All day?

Clearly not..
But probably the vast majority.

As a personal opinion, I don't think it offers much chance for a little girl to think of herself being brilliant when she is surrounded by people who do not excel at things "brilliant".

And that's all women is it?

Xeno,
It's about nature/nuture and roll models.

What roll model does a 6yo see? Women who concentrate on looks and beauty. Women who spend time doing makeup. Women who go shopping for clothes. Women talking about babies.

What if it was a pink Penelope Pitstop car? Designed for the female sex. Would the male monkey discard it on account of his innate preference for things designed for males?

I can understand a monkey mimicking motherhood by holding a doll. But I can't possibly buy into a monkey's innate (so a characteristic honed by thousands of years of evolution) preference for an invention that is less than 100 years old.

I still think the truck thing is bollocks, though. The male monkeys werent interested in the person-like toy so took the next available option, by default.

I wonder what the outcome would be if there was a third (neutral) set of toys introduced like balls,puzzles,building blocks etc.