Why do so many men turn bad...?

They do that because it is in their nature. Socialising, conditioning etc train them not to, if they are trainable. Not all are.

What I always think about this, is that it's surprising more men aren't rapists, murderers, DV perpetrators etc.

The message society sends boys and men, is so strong, that when I'm feeling optimistic, I think how amazing it is that so many men turn out not to be abusive and how that may be an indicator of just how great men could be, if they weren't being corrupted by patriarchy.

But when I'm feeling pessimistic, I wonder what goes on behind closed doors and how many of the men who behave like decent, thoughtful men in public, are actually entitled wankers. We don't know do we, there isn't a survey that goes round all households and asks about deep-seated attitudes.

I don't think it's just upbringing, because many people who saw callousness and cruelty while they were growing up, actually go on to make good, loving families and I think we need to be very careful about coming over (unintentionally I'm sure) as assuming that people who grew up in abusive families, are almost fated to repeat the patterns; it's not true; people have choices, they are able to stand back and decide that they are not going to repeat bad patters and even if they find that occasionally their abusive childhood comes back to bite them on the bum, they are still able to make an overall decision not to be abusive themselves.

If society did not nudge men who were brought up in cruel, abusive families along to "the bad", then we would find a similar number of women committing violent crimes and being terribly abusive. But we don't, because society doesn't give women the same message it gives men: that they're entitled to sex, to a woman's attention and time and energy, that they have the right to put their lives at the centre of existence and expect any woman they take up with, to be a satellite to their existence rather than a planet in her own right IYSWIM.

It's that thing of seeing women as also-ran human beings, not default. Yes we're sort of human, yes we have the right to have our own little lives, but not if it's inconvenient to men. So of course women can go out to work and have a career, but the idea that I'm going to go part time and take the career hit that doing my full share of parenting would entail - what a ridiculous idea, that's for women to do. Of course women have the right not to be raped in marriage, but not if I have to go without a fuck for longer than 3 months etc.

It's about entitlement IMO.

Most of the men who behave very badly are not in prison. Most rapists are not in prison, most men who commit domestic violence are not in prison, most stalkers are not in prison. A very small number actually get prosecuted and imprisoned.

There seems to be a self centredness in society at the moment. That I can bully my way to getting what I want. Entitlement. And sex, women's bodies, are one of the things men are entitled to.

I think it is more than not seeing women as real people considering that most of male aggression and violence is directed towards other men not women.

1 in 16, sorry! 16% would be horrifying.

Well 16% self report as rapists according to one study. I'd say that's a lot.

With rape, prison population is a laughable metric.

Whilst not disputing your central point, I do wonder about the language 'so many men'. Are too many men rapists? Absolutely, but it is a fraction of the whole (although of course the exact fraction is unclear)

I think that is a valid point.

Don't derail the thread trib
I think there is something almost compulsive in some mens sexuality and that coupled with a bit of entitlement and "she likes it really/she just needs wooing " when women aren't enthusiastic adds up to bad news.
I don't know where thats come from and whether it's innate but I can believe it is as it relates to sex drive and sexual behaviour is one area that has a direct impact on whether or not genes are passed on.

Whilst not disputing your central point, I do wonder about the language 'so many men'. Are too many men rapists? Absolutely, but it is a fraction of the whole (although of course the exact fraction is unclear).

I had a look for statistics about the prison population - not the same as the number of people who have committed crimes, but at least it's a metric. The link is here - it will download a PDF.

In 2015 there were 356 male prisoners per 100,000 of the male population, or 0.36%

I think it's a combo. I used to work in a rehab and one psychologist said that men are conditioned to turn anger out and women in. So a very bad childhood might lead to anorexia or self-harm in a woman but rage and violence in a man. Same anger; different target.

"And I believe it is almost wholly down to upbringing. If you see callousness and hatred when growing up, how much more likely are you to act similarly than someone who saw kindness and love?"

Erin Pizzey observed as much.

I think this is bigger than just "men are taught women are there to be used".

Humanity in general is very callous and uncaring.

And I believe it is almost wholly down to upbringing. If you see callousness and hatred when growing up, how much more likely are you to act similarly than someone who saw kindness and love?

ps I read some replies meanwhile and it seems that both Elvis and Eagle echo my thoughts.

I would say all the very decent, kind men I know well had involved fathers who were of a similar ilk. I definitely don't think a boy would turn out badly without a good male role-model but if a boy does have one, it seems very likely he would follow suit iyswim.

Yes I did, my dad worked full time in a technical job that he enjoyed, he did a lot of DIY and was very hands on.

Mum stopped working when I was born and she did all the child care/housework and managed the financial stuff. (She said it was her full time job)

Some on here would say it wasn't a fair split at all....but my parents always saw they were equal.

They worked as a team, and always helped us with homework etc.

They still have a happy marriage.

I think seeing this as a kid showed me how the families should be.

I am going to follow this with interest as a male who turned out good......well I believe I did

Upbringing I believe plays a important part. My mum and dad had a good stable relationship that I could see as a child

I think it's conditioning. So much of the world encourages people to think of women as ornamental, not real people. I think it's very easy for men to get to a point where other people are props in their life rather than real.