Why do so many men turn bad...?

I am incredibly jaded, but from late 30s ALL the men I know have gone bad. Not rapists and murder etc, but without exception all the men, and it is predominantly white upper middle class men, are indulging in prostitutes, drugs, affairs, selfish behaviour in other ways, not wanting to pay tax, belittling their wives, not doing their share, peacocking.

I am so disappointed. I wish I knew some good, honest, thoughtful, kind, generous of spirit men who would give me hope!

Xenophile - The actual documentary 'Are You Good or Evil' is more descriptive (and a very interesting watch).

Aren't sociopathy and psychopathy interchangable terms? Or at least overlap?

Thank you. That article also seems to be describing sociopathy as psychopathy. Presumably for ease of reference.

And I never thought you were spouting evo-psych bollocks anyway.

I meant psychopath, Xeno.
Re the psychopathic brain
And a little more

No evo-psych bollocks.

Have I said something wrong?

Yes Yet, it's almost like there's a pattern to the behaviour!

Mmmmm ... one finally crosses the line and gets banned and another identical twin pops up ...

Yes Yet, it's almost like there's a pattern to the behaviour!

What is a 'demanding question'?

By typing psychopaths are you actually talking about sociopaths or just anyone with a psychopathology? There's a massive different and I'd like to be clear what you mean before I respond.

And please, no evo-psych bollocks, it just makes me cross when people perpetuate unfalsifiable dribbling arsegravy.

It follows a pattern of starting off discussing the point at hand and then subtly (or not so subtly) switching onto discussing the shortcomings of women and then getting actually really arsey and accusing us of being man haters and saying things like "if you were a bit nicer/less emotional then I might engage"

Don't forget making oneself the centre of attention, asking demanding questions and demanding answers, not actually listening to responses and repeating the same point over and over if disagreed with (because, surely, if we understood we'd agree).

Thank you Devi.

josef we get a lot of trolling on here. It follows a pattern of starting off discussing the point at hand and then subtly (or not so subtly) switching onto discussing the shortcomings of women and then getting actually really arsey and accusing us of being man haters and saying things like "if you were a bit nicer/less emotional then I might engage".
I thought early indications were you were off down that path. I apologise if you are here to discuss in good faith.

Lumela - And of course one question is how much of that behaviour is innate and how much societal. Another is what we can do about it. If someone with a 'psychopathic' brain can be raised to be law-abiding, functioning member of society, though a competitive one, surely, as a society, we can do better with boys than produce the number of sexual assailants, violent abusers and all the not physically violent but nonetheless unpleasant individuals than we do now

Yes, I think a lot has to do with raising boys not to be entitled and to see women as equal in personhood. This is pretty Kantian really - seeing women as ends and not means (to their ends).

I wouldn't say psychopaths are ever functional LumelaMme, even when they're law abiding. I knew one once.

He was a very sucessful, ostensibly charismatic man who looked straight at me and said 'if one of my children died, I'd feel nothing'. He was an enormous asset to the industrial-capitalist complex, but as a human being he was totally off his rocker.

But sorry this is getting off the topic in hand.

but that some turn up the volume on ordinary male behaviour enough to be noticed and called on it?
I think that's an excellent point, Yet.

And of course one question is how much of that behaviour is innate and how much societal. Another is what we can do about it. If someone with a 'psychopathic' brain can be raised to be law-abiding, functioning member of society, though a competitive one, surely, as a society, we can do better with boys than produce the number of sexual assailants, violent abusers and all the not physically violent but nonetheless unpleasant individuals than we do now?

:/ Oh gosh, I assume that was directed at me. That makes me feel bad.

I assure everyone I was not demanding anyone do anything metaphorical with my willy, just throwing out pertinent questions in an online discussion.

Sometimes I wonder about online discussion. People get very aggressive very quickly.

"but fundamentally I've been wondering if it is not so much that men go bad, but that some turn up the volume on ordinary male behaviour enough to be noticed and called on it?"

Funnily enough, that's my question too. But I would raise the deeper question (though I hope in a non-entitled and non-demanding of an answer kind of way) of where the 'ordinary male behaviour' comes from. Were they born with it? Or did they acquire it?

This is a very important question. If it is the former then there is very little anyone can do about it. If the latter then there is.

This question cuts to the heart of the nature/nurture debate.

I've been pondering this thread for a few days and have been wondering if we are focussing too much on the quantity of 'badness' and not so much on 'qualities'. I haven't quite thought this through, but when I read the original post which said "why so many men end up being rapists, paedophiles, DV abusers, stalkers etc?" I immediately thought of the kinds of entitlement that 'ordinary' men possess and the kinds of 'ordinary' abuses that women face in our day-to-day lives. There are general categories here. For example, many men think they have the right to women's labour. Women do their womanly work of looking after the children and men do them a favour by 'minding' the products of their own DNA. How many times have I read here and elsewhere of battles about the domestic labour and men's refusal to do their fair share (and this is well-supported in domestic time-use surveys)? Carole Pateman, Andrea Dworkin, Catharine MacKinnon and others have read about men's 'sex right', the right that men have (and think they are entitled to) and that is still enshrined in some laws, to women's bodies. This is reflected in prostitution, pornography, rape and much domestic violence. I could go on ... but fundamentally I've been wondering if it is not so much that men go bad, but that some turn up the volume on ordinary male behaviour enough to be noticed and called on it?

That is if we can, for once, have a discussion about the original topic without entitled male posters derailing and then whining for women to suck their dicks answer their questions?

Ah sorry Devi, that'll teach me not to read the thread properly before posting.

I believe that men's brains are perhaps more violent In The primeval part as, just like mail lions, chimps etc.....the hunter. Female brains are the gatherer.

Except that's rubbish:

video.nationalgeographic.com/video/male-female-bci

Titled:

Female lions (lionesses) do all of the hunting in a pride - the male lions tend to step in and take any spoils of victory.

I believe the accepted term is 'evo-psych bollocks'

DevitheGaelet there is no derailing. The issue of how women behave in power is directly relevant to the question of WHY men are more bad than women. The women in power present a basis for comparison, demonstrating the abuse of power not to be an innately male tendency but the result of power structures that favour men.

If you disagree with this argument then I would be interested to hear what you have to say in response.

If I may say so, it seems a little unfair to accuse anyone whose view does not accord with your own of 'derailing'.

DeviTheGaelet, AskBasil said:

"The evidence is that where women have power, they behave more collaboratively and co-operatively with other human beings and do not in fact, use their power and resources for self-aggrandisement and to exploit other humans in anything like the degree men do."

I then disagreed with what AskBasil said, and explained why.

Is that a problem?

Maybe you disagree with what I said. That means you can respond to it in turn. And so on.

It was sarcasm alfie! I'm a bit fed up of derailers on this kind of thread. Sorry, it wasn't appropriate

Devi, in the majority of relationships men hold the balance of power. Therefore their actions have the potential to cause more damage.
This doesn't mean women can't be bad too, lots behave equally abusively but like it or not convictions are overwhelmingly of men.