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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is "being an ally" really all that women can do if they don't also belong to another at risk group?

56 replies

TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 21:27

It seems to be according to the comments on every viral post about politics on twitter and facebook over the last couple of days..

Women who aren't trans or gay or non-white……. are they not still a supressed group in their own right ? Seems the popular consensus is that role is either "ally" or "part of the problem". That's it?

I get that "just" being a woman provides far less hurdles in life than being a woman AND non-white, ore being a woman & disabled, or being a woman & queer, but it still makes you more at risk than you would be if you weren't a woman. Am I guaging the tone of social media correctly that most involved in acivism at the moment believe that woman who are not any of the above should not push "their agenda" and should only get involved as a ally?

I mean, feminism is not done yet? Did I miss something?

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quencher · 25/01/2017 00:33

Am not saying sit down and shut up. Am saying this sort of match should happen more often. It should not be a rarity and only come out because of trump. We see men like him almost every day.

Why are people not bothered most of the other time to the same degree when it's not that different? You know why? It's because a lot of the time people decide to turn a blind eye.

TinselTwins · 25/01/2017 00:23

What made me sad about the match was the thought that, if women stood up often and were not selective on what suits them as a race but women in general. we would be further in the cause.

Men who never marched before marched this time
People of colour who never marched before marched this time
People from the LGBQT community who never marched before marched this time

But only the white feminists who never marched before who marched this time are getting criticised, and no applauded, for turning up this time for the first time!

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TinselTwins · 25/01/2017 00:21

What made me sad about the match was the thought that, if women stood up often and were not selective on what suits them as a race but women in general. we would be further in the cause.

What made me sad about it is that instead of it just being a good thing that more people turned out together than ever before, so many women are being criticised about the way they turned out, or about the why they turned out.

but they don't have the same platform as white women. Even though white women think they don't hold any power. The other groups don't hold positions in the media in the same way to make sure the media hear them, below, white men

so although women still have less of a voice than men, what is being said to the women that do have some privilidge in so much as they can turn out and be visible in the media is: "sit down and shut up" - literally! I'm not paraphrasing there

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TinselTwins · 25/01/2017 00:14

I also in theory want to fight for and defent rights across the board.

but to give another example, there was a discussion about a young white celebrity who was photographed at the march. she was just there, no divisive sign or any sort of quote. The discussion refered to her having previously spoken out about an example of misogyny in her industry.. and the conclusion on the thread was that she was only "stepping up" because it affected her personally and she wouldn't otherwise have given a damn (how do they know that?)

What was her crime? it was a really scathing thread! It seemed to bubble up and by the end of it (based just on conclusions drawn from the two separate incidents above) she didn't care about people of colour, she didn't care about people persecuted for their religion, she didn't care about gay rights etc etc…. all of those conclusions gleened simply from the fact that she dared to speak out about her own rights being trodden on… and then (months? years?)later, she showed up to the march!

And apparently she's all that's wrong with white feminism.

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quencher · 25/01/2017 00:12

Op, you are being silly now.

Op, I think I understand where they are coming from though. A lot of white feminist only stand for issues when it will affect them even though they have the biggest and loudest platform which they only use in their favour. Women's match this week was an example how this played out. Believe me, I was glad women came in droves to protest against issues that matter to us all as women.

What made me sad about the match was the thought that, if women stood up often and were not selective on what suits them as a race but women in general. we would be further in the cause.

It also, felt like it was a battle between two groups of white women. Those who voted for trump and those who didn't, ( or those who would have loved for Hilary to have been nominated) instead of protesting against trump and a lot of men who behave and hold sexist beliefs and views.

Being a woman, speaking about being oppressed by the patriarchy, is not a "position of privilege" in the context of a discussion about patriarchy???? or is it? it is yes it is. A lot of women don't have the position to actually hold and protest in the same way white women do. Sometimes, they do but they don't have the same platform as white women. Even though white women think they don't hold any power. The other groups don't hold positions in the media in the same way to make sure the media hear them, below, white men. The other groups in most cases are not taken seriously. In most cases the protest against the issue is seen as western invention brought to corrupt that particular group/ race or sometime its phase that they expect it will pass.

I can't comment for trans because I have no idea how they feel to relate to what you are saying.

What I do find puzzling is comments from feminist about how they can't be mothers of the world. Why do they have to sort out everyone else problem. Op, this is similar to what you are saying. It's a very European/American way of thinking that comes from privilege.
From the gist of what you have posted, what I would say is that people see white feminist as a group of people who who are better off than most. If you are disabled and white woman, you are in a worser position in society compared to a white woman without any form of disability. If a disabled white woman complains, they are probably talking about being in small group that most people might never even care they exist let alone being a woman.
Dose her problem only apply to disable people or should it be a feminist issue if it affects groups of women who are disabled?

I don't think anyone should stop feminist from voicing their opinion. However, if people see double standards and bullshit. I believe it should be stated and pointed out.

I can't believe you said discrimination against black women- tick. Yes am laughing at this. 😂

venusinscorpio · 25/01/2017 00:03

I think intersectionality is a positive concept, and necessary, but I'm not keen on how it tends to pan out in practice, as the Oppression Olympics. I like the clarity of radical feminism. I am happy to be an ally to other oppressed groups, except in cases where it's suggested their rights should trump women's. Not just talking about trans rights, but also the blind application of cultural relativism and other clashes of rights. If something is misogynistic I will call it out.

MercyMyJewels · 24/01/2017 23:44

It's the neo-lib race to the bottom mentality. Same people on benefits getting no sympathy for their position because they have a big telly.

Check your cis-privilege.... I will when you lob your dick off mate

TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 23:43

it's not just coming from trans activists any more, it seems to have been adopted by all other groups affected by discrimination to re-write what kinds of discrimination against women can be addressed.
Discrimination against black women - tick
Discrimination against transwomen - tick
Discrimination against women on the basis of having been born a woman? - OH HELL NO SNOWFLAKE!

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venusinscorpio · 24/01/2017 23:31

They're supposed to Know Their Place. However much they genuflect to transactivists it will never ever be enough to wipe out the crime of being born a woman.

TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 23:29

How do you move forward and continue to try to do good and not just retire into apathy with all this going on?

I don't know where feminists are supposed to fit within feminism any more Confused

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TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 23:26

In my experience, men are rarely ever asked, or bother, to "check their privilege

the misogyny I'm seeing under the guise of 'inclusive feminism" is astounding. Women are being told that male allys are doing feminism better than they are!

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TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 23:16

"check your privilege" used to mean deepen your understanding about the issues, read a bit, be a better ally

"check your privilidge" in the context it's been used the last few days basically means "shut up silly little white woman, nobody cares about your issues, only selfless men or people of colour or LGBQT are doing it right!"

WTFuckingF

(again, I'm not talking about white women who were actually being "me me me" in the context of other groups problems)

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venusinscorpio · 24/01/2017 23:08

In my experience, men are rarely ever asked, or bother, to "check their privilege".

HelenDenver · 24/01/2017 22:26

"However, why, right now, does that only apply disproportionately to white feminists? What about checking the privilidge of the men who belong to other minorities checking their privilidge by virtue of not being a woman? - why is nobody asking them to do that instead of wiping popular feminism off the agenda?"

Well put.

TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 22:16

We're not talking here about a woman who showed up to (for example) the dakota pipeline then stripped off on front of the cameras with "my body my choice" written across her torso… these are women at womens marches with signs about womens issues.

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TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 22:13

If you are a feminist, for any sort of "selfish" reason (e.g. not wanting men to decide what happens to your body), you are not a good ally when it comes to any other group because you obviously only want to come to activism because it affected you, and if it didn't you'ld be at home bathing in baths of goats milk.

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TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 22:11

Also, another thing that's making me uncomfortable, and it's coming up on my social media feeds again and again and again and again:

Praise for white male allys who are "doing it right" (and they are, I'm not arguing with that) but white women who are feminists are all doing it wrong?

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TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 22:09

I don't know very much about it at all but I think it is a good thing that we're encouraged to check our privilege. I'm a member of a couple of minorities but that doesn't mean that I haven't benefited by being in a white majority and probably in other ways too. I think it's a good idea to reflect and try not to assume that our experiences aren't the same.

I agree with all of that and have always tried to live by it

However, why, right now, does that only apply disproportionately to white feminists? What about checking the privilidge of the men who belong to other minorities checking their privilidge by virtue of not being a woman? - why is nobody asking them to do that instead of wiping popular feminism off the agenda?

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TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 22:06

Whilst at the same time wondering where that leaves all the unresolved womens health issues? and safety issues? and financial disadvantages?

I don't want a "pat on the back" for helping. Eugh!
But anyone who objects to the relentness criticism of white feminists is accused of having some sort of helper syndrome ego!

I've stopped sharing womens march posts Sad which is a shame because some of them are fantastic, but I'm not on board with the comments of the majority

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user1485214521 · 24/01/2017 22:06

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tygr · 24/01/2017 22:05

*are not aren't.

tygr · 24/01/2017 22:05

I don't know very much about it at all but I think it is a good thing that we're encouraged to check our privilege. I'm a member of a couple of minorities but that doesn't mean that I haven't benefited by being in a white majority and probably in other ways too. I think it's a good idea to reflect and try not to assume that our experiences aren't the same. Might not have explained that too well.

All about the intersectionality these days.

TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 22:03

reading thought the comments on these things (and I am now) I feel I am on the one hand being told to be an ally (I have always tried to be) but on the other hand suddenly feeling that the same groups see me as "the problem" by default. WIBU to step away from it all? I know I would that's not the world I want.. but how do you fit when you're told "come here and be an ally, we hate you BTW, don't whinge about that though because it's not about you, yeah!"

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TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 21:50

Another example:

A post about activism in general - not referencing any particular cause:
Just a nice little vid about "if you can't make a march, can you help make plakards for those who can make it, can you drop friends who can go at the train station, other ways to support if you can't make it"
NOPE how dare a white woman tell people how to be an ally, only people who are "living it" get to decide who is a good ally (- almost a direct quote there)

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TinselTwins · 24/01/2017 21:47

The ally thing used to work both ways too:

straight women could be an ally for gay rights
gay men could be an ally for womens rights
but what I'm reading = being told that all the ally-ness should be coming from me to them with none coming the other way because I'm a white woman.. . who apparenly now is sounding like them enemy???? wtf??

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