Please help me to not hate men

Lessthan indeed feminism should be a class analysis, however the thread is about "hating men" as individuals. The point I was struggling to make was women and men make poor decisions that result in harm.

So a wider analysis points out the structural weaknesses of societies and the impact of patriarchy, but that can not be used to lessen personal responsibility.
We all make decisions based on our experiences but we have free will and can act individually to improve the life experiences of those around us.

Therefore it seems to me unfair to hate any group, men, women, feminists etc but it is perfectly reasonable to look at the actions of individuals and to dislike their actions, be they men or women.

Isn't that for the police to handle. A man who commits a crime should be brought to justice not men.

"On the face value of the article they were demonstrating about the conference taking place."

On the face value of the provided quote they so very clearly weren't doing any such thing.

You fell for the intentionally anti-feminist twist & spin meant to whip you into a froth over nasty, nasty women and distract you from the epidemic of male violence wrecking our families, communities, and entire planet.

So actually we have no idea what the feminists were protesting about or if it was reasonable

Indeed not. So even more reason for Sillage not to leap in with her statement that the demonstrators were correct. On the face value of the article they were demonstrating about the conference taking place.

lass I'm a bit unsure about what precisely happened at the conference. It was mentioned while the speaker was publicising a book about the taboo of female sexual abuse, 17 years after the conference. The only other references are on MRA sites. So actually we have no idea what the feminists were protesting about or if it was reasonable.
It is ridiculous it's derailed the thread to the extent it has.

Oh stop exaggerating Sillage .

If these demonstrators genuinely cared about all abused children why turn up and demonstrate at a conference about abused children?

I profoundly disagree with LessThan's post. To me that analysis just negates any concept of personal responsibility for one's actions.

lessthan great post

OP, I think the problem is pretty easy to solve. If you want to hate, then hate all perpetrators who abuse women and children and animals as well. If those perpetrators are mainly or even overwhelmingly men, you will end up hating much more men than women. But why the need of hating a whole gender by association?

"Women are victims and enforcers."

Look, it's a systemic issue. Feminism is about class analysis not saying individuals are this or that or all men are this and that.

It's about looking at patterns of inequities amongst populations and asking why. It's about looking at the way society is structured and how it passes those structures and inequalities on to the next generation.

Yes of course women enforce it. Mothers put their daughters through FGM before the same reason they tell them not to be a "pricktease". Because they are trying to negotiate a way for their daughters in a world that sanctions girls for expressing their sexuality.

Who benefits from the policing and sanctioning of female sexuality? As a class, who benefits? And why is it so universal? It's not about pinning blame on men or women or whatever. It's about asking questions at a class level.

"They were rying to deny these victims , (which I see Sillage has described/dismissed even as "statistically insignificant" ) a vehicle where their abuse can be considered."

Oh really?

They tried to have the conference no-platformed? No they didn't.

They tried to discredit the speaker and slander her personally and professionally? Nope, they didn't do that either.

They threatened to bomb the building? They threatened to make all their advertisers pull out? They threatened retaliation to any organizations and people associated with the conference?

Nope, nope, nope.

What horrible thing did these rape-denying monsters in the shape of women do?

"They stood up and started yelling about how terrible it was that I was detracting from the fact that male power was to blame."

BURN THEM AND SALT THE EARTH WHERE THEIR TAINTED BODIES FALL.

A woman in America has been charged with rape but not yet sentenced.

There was a woman stand up thing the other day. I saw men stand next to women. Have you been to women events to understand more. I am sure it's not only women that turn up it's also men who support women.

msanonymous initial comment was a derail of the topic.

Sillage could have replied saying the comment was a derail and suggesting a new thread, if Ms wanted to discusd it. Instead she replied with :-

"They stood up and started yelling about how terrible it was that I was detracting from the fact that male power was to blame."

British Crime Survey and police crime figures from 2009-10 show men were perpetrators in:

98% of sexual offences
99% of child rape

So the women who spoke up were correct

The conference these women were trying to drown out was a conference dealing with a subject matter not usually covered; abuse by women.

How can these women's actions possibly be "correct" ? They were rying to deny these victims , (which I see Sillage has described/dismissed even as "statistically insignificant" ) a vehicle where their abuse can be considered.

I agree this caused a derail but Sillage's dismissive posts are pretty bloody awful.

Ok Charlie - go for it then, in order to clarify - answer the questions

No, I don't hate all men. I am married to a man and I have adult sons, all good men. I know what the OP means though.

Most of this thread isn't a discussion about the original question though; it's mostly an argument about something that a poster never said which has been deliberately misrepresented for the purposes of derailing the discussion. As these threads almost always are.

Except SHE DIDN'T SAY THAT
And the fact you are continually raising this conference shows your true colours #weseeyou

Devi we would not still be on about it were it not for Sillage's view that being a feminist means denying the existence of female child sex abusers. Had she not implied such a view I would have let the matter be. To be fair, there is no reason why feminists should be directly concerned with the issue. Their concern is with the oppression of women by men - men representing the overwhelming majority of sexual offenders (for reasons we could argue about all day). However when feminists deny female perpetrated sexual abuse then they make it a feminist issue.

If you have as a child been abused by a woman then someone telling you that you do not deserve a voice or a spokesperson is a very big deal. To a victim that translates as 'ZIP IT'. This view must be challenged robustly because it perpetuates the lifelong misery of victims.

I trust I have made myself clear. I have nothing further to add on this issue.

The power you're absurdly attributing to African mothers is power they don't have, hence the tricklings of resistance and men's violent refusals to girls getting educated instead of getting sexually mutilated. Men blow up schools for girls, burn their textbooks, and shoot in the head advocates who want more for girls than rape slavery and domestic servitude

It could be argued that in Africa women can not resist the external pressures to mutilate their daughters. That point can not be argued in the UK and Europe. Within certain communities FGM is perpetrated by women, yes there are wider societal pressures but that does not absolve people of individual moral responsibility.

There are support groups and education programmes to help prevent FGM, there is a choice and many women do not mutilate their daughters but some still do.

Some young men within these communities do not know what FGM is. I know this because I educate them about it and they are horrified they genuinely have no idea what is being done in their name.

I am working with a young woman whose western educated sister is trying to force her into an arranged marriage. She could stop this marriage but is choosing not to.

Women are victims and enforcers. The patriarchy harms us all and we all bear some responsibility for perpetuating it. We have to make personal decisions about where we draw a line. Shaving your armpits? Taking your husbands name? FGM?

God, are we still on about a conference that happened 25 YEARS AGO? and may or may not have been derailed by nasty feminists.

OP it make me angry too that men stay silent. It also makes me angry that women collude with this to brush feminist issues under the carpet. I know it's painful to confront these issues head on and much less painful to pretend women somehow have a choice or can avoid horrible things happening to them. I still find it incredibly frustrating because until we (as a society) can be honest about the scale and cause of issues we can't move on.

I think that answers the question.

You've proven yourself best ignored.

Was the conference legitimate in your opinion?

Take a deep breath, no one here is doing that.

We see your repetitive, unsound arguments and your 'feminist' bashing and know from many years of experience exactly what you're about. It ain't noble fury over child rape.

Was the conference legitimate in your opinion?

I'm only taking this line because people who deny or excuse sexual abuse disgust me - whether that's men making their usual patriarchal excuses for the violation of female children or 'feminists' maintaining that women can't abuse.

Don't care what the ideological agenda is, it's a big no no in my books.

The conference wasn't shut down, it was added to.