Please help me to not hate men

Misogyny doesn't hurt men at all. Why the hell do you think the patriarchy exists? It's for the benefit of men.

Sillage are you saying that the little boys and girls who have had their lives reduced to a living hell by female abusers should not be spoken for?

If so that is appalling.

"Well as the mother of two lovely boys I'd be horrified if they brought home a girl who felt they had an additional duty to 'prove' themselves purely by virtue of gender. I would think that it was the attitude of 'more to prove' that led to women suffering oppression so to return the favour rather than be a bit more forward thinking is pathetic."

a) I'm not a girl. I'm a woman. So no danger.
b) it's by virtue of sex, not gender
c) you SURE that that's what you think causes oppression? Really sure?

Well I'm also a mother of boys and I wouldn't be horrified by that at all.

I'd be horrified if my boys did not grow up to understand they were at an advantage from the minute they were born due to their sex, and did not recognise that women were entitled to be angry about it.

i mean traditional concepts of masculinity and femininity. Sometimes men are raised to be or raised in a group that encourages them to behave in a certain way or have certain ideas about gender. I do think misogyny hurts men as well as it hurts women altho obviously the effects on women are greater.
I just mean to say its not the men themselves you are hating but the way they have been encouraged to think and act.
Its not that easy to break out of and these men who hate women are not happy men. You dont need to hate them because they already hate themselves.

Oh well that's that cleared up for me then. Thanks for telling me what I actually think.

I despise being told that 'misogyny hurts men too'. It should be enough that it hurts women.

Well as the mother of two lovely boys I'd be horrified if they brought home a girl who felt they had an additional duty to 'prove' themselves purely by virtue of gender. I would think that it was the attitude of 'more to prove' that led to women suffering oppression so to return the favour rather than be a bit more forward thinking is pathetic.

i mean traditional concepts of masculinity and femininity. Sometimes men are raised to be or raised in a group that encourages them to behave in a certain way or have certain ideas about gender. I do think misogyny hurts men as well as it hurts women altho obviously the effects on women are greater.
I just mean to say its not the men themselves you are hating but the way they have been encouraged to think and act.
Its not that easy to break out of and these men who hate women are not happy men. You dont need to hate them because they already hate themselves.

In fact it looks as though Ms Elliott was publicising a book in 2009, she certainly doesn't appear to be vocal on the topic of female abusers recently but the "feminists at a conference" has become a bit of an MRA trope.
It's odd that when someone posts about men being violent/rapists the answer is always "but women do it too!" Without much supporting evidence at all

It demonstrates the widespread acceptance of mens use of women for their own ends and how embedded it is.

Yup.

I wait dutifully for the "see this is why more women aren't feminists!!" comments.

Its not men its toxic masculinity that is sadly forced upon some men. Dont hate those men feel sorry for them because the majority of those types of men will never be really happy or at peace.
Its not even all aspects of masculinity just a certain concept of it. You know these men are sad and confused and angry and most of all very very alone because they cant connect with women properly or even other men for that matter. They also hate themselves because they hate femininity so cannot tolerate it in themselves or other men... but of course everyone is both feminine and masculine in varying degrees and so they will constantly be at war with themselves.

Aye, poor fellas

What do you mean by masculinity and femininity?

I wish I was amazed at the horror shown towards the idea that, in the context of the widespread sexual, financial and labour exploitation of women by men, some women feel a bit miffed about men in general. It demonstrates the widespread acceptance of mens use of women for their own ends and how embedded it is.

toptoe- Women and men are equally capable of being unkind human beings

Except they are not. 95% of individuals incarcerated for violent crimes are men.

The results aren't the same. And quantitative data can't be determined by feelings. What do you actually mean by quite antisocial?

Its not men its toxic masculinity that is sadly forced upon some men. Dont hate those men feel sorry for them because the majority of those types of men will never be really happy or at peace.
Its not even all aspects of masculinity just a certain concept of it. You know these men are sad and confused and angry and most of all very very alone because they cant connect with women properly or even other men for that matter. They also hate themselves because they hate femininity so cannot tolerate it in themselves or other men... but of course everyone is both feminine and masculine in varying degrees and so they will constantly be at war with themselves.

"They stood up and started yelling about how terrible it was that I was detracting from the fact that male power was to blame."

British Crime Survey and police crime figures from 2009-10 show men were perpetrators in:

98% of sexual offences
99% of child rape

So the women who spoke up were correct.

msanonymouse that was 25 years ago! Not a few years ago. 25 years ago we barely recognised grooming. 25 years ago many victims of paedophiles were disbelieved and told they were fantasists.
It's hardly indicative of these hordes of feminists that your original post suggested

Women and men are equally capable of being unkind human beings, they just do it slightly differently imo and ime. The results are the same. I feel like in the general human population a good 5-10% are quite antisocial. Testosterone may play a part in this, but actually I think it's to do with how the brain is wired in these individuals. This smallish percentage cause lots of problems for everyone they come into contact with, to varying degrees. No one gets away from them untainted.

Quite, rainbow

Neutrality by default assumes starting with a level playing field that simply doesn't exist.

I actively hate the patriarchy, and by default I'm afraid that includes men.

What does not liking men 'as a class' actually mean? If you see a man on the tube, do you dislike him by default and then he has to prove himself worthy of approval? Or are you neutral towards him?

The OP isn't talking about 'just' disliking though, it's actively hating.

If I see a man on the train I don't know I feel indifferent - he's an individual.

I certainly mistrust him by default.

What does not liking men 'as a class' actually mean? If you see a man on the tube, do you dislike him by default and then he has to prove himself worthy of approval? Or are you neutral towards him?

I'm pretty happy for the onus to be on male individuals to prove they don't warrant hatred, at this point.

I love my partner, but I don't think he's exempt from being one of the oppressing class in a patriarchal society. He experiences the world differently to me. He couldn't not. Ditto my dad and brother.