DD and the trans thing. She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

AskBasil I am fully informed about the woeful under reporting of rape and sexual harassment - which is why I did not make that point.

There was a pp in the past who talked about the fact that women had started getting changed in their clothes without exposing their bodies when a transwoman came into the changing room at a swimming pool, and apparently that was considered transphobic. You cannot legislate to protect people's feelings. Should those women be forced to strip off to make the transwoman more comfortable?

Agree bitofacow, not by you.

But don't you see that your arguments are connected? By saying that it's all OK because we can report, you are totally trivialising the gradual impact this will have on women's lives and freedom.

We will be less safe. And we will feel less safe. And we will modify our behaviour accordingly. We already trammel our lives because of the ever constant threat of male violence, it's appalling that so many women are prepared to allow men's feelz to force us into even less freedom and safety than we already have.

Because their feelz matter, while ours are just shit and we can report...

Yes I have changed lots of ideas. That is not the point I am making.

Teenagers, and indeed, most people dislike being told anything. There is an attitude prevalent on some trans threads that any arguments are foolish and can be dismissed. See previous comments about people being " wrong " etc. I can understand the feeling of being embattled but expressing this view, in this way, to teenagers is in my view doomed to failure.

To have an open discussion both sides have to listen. I'm not sure that is always the case on some threads.

Yeah, sure the laws could be used that way bitofacow.

But in the real world, they wouldn't be, would they?

The willy waver would simply look outraged, clutch his pearls and start wailing about how he never did any such thing and you're making it up because of your transphobic bigotry.

Who do you think would be believed?

Here's a clue: 7% of rape reports to the police, end in a guilty verdict, even though most of them are true.

Not a good precedent is it?

And er, you would still have been harassed by a man in a shower.

What's going to happen, is that women won't use showers in public anymore. They'll be discouraged from going swimming, using gym changing rooms etc.

It's another way of getting women out of the public sphere.

Well, if the official statistics for prisoners by sex and offence are anything to go by, men are 100 times more likely than women to commit sexual assault. So, not vaguely worried about other women in the changing rooms. Rather worried by the idea that a man (not necessarily someone trans) could self-identify as female to gain access to women's spaces for a spot of voyeurism and exhibitionism. Because if self-identification is the only definition that counts, then who can possibly deny someone's claim about their own state of mind? Voyeurism and exhibitionism literally become nonsensical as offences. They cease to exist. The defence of "but I felt like a woman at the time I was in that changing room" becomes absolute and irrefutable. But I guess that's me being bigoted.

Yeah, let's pretend women are as likely to prance around sexually harassing each other, as men are to prance around sexually harassing women.

This. What a disingenuous argument.

And yet I am the one who is told I am being unrealistic and the idea that predatory men will take advantage of another opportunity to harass women, is fanciful

You may have been told this, but not on this thread and not by me.

Do you think your arguments and thoughts on things haven't progressed since you were a teenager, bitofacow? You haven't grown up or learnt anything?

Yet someone tells me maybe a woman will come round thrusting her breasts at me

No you were not told this.

I suggested in a hypothetical situation the laws relating to harassment could be used to prevent you from being accused of a hate crime.

SomeDyke harassment and assault is still harassment and assault regardless of genitalia. Do you really believe a woman could not harass and assault another woman? This situation involves being naked in a shower I can easily imagine how I could feel threatened by anyone.

I also in no way implied or suggested the attacker was a lesbian.

This is why people don't engage in these threads and teenagers don't listen.

Yeah, let's pretend women are as likely to prance around sexually harassing each other, as men are to prance around sexually harassing women.

I have literally never felt sexually threatened by a woman in a nekkid environment. Never. Yet men - in fully clothed environments? So many times that I can't fucking count them.

Yet someone tells me maybe a woman will come round thrusting her breasts at me.

And yet I am the one who is told I am being unrealistic and the idea that predatory men will take advantage of another opportunity to harass women, is fanciful.

We are hysterical pearl clutchers we're told. Usually by people who also tell us that women might jiggle their breasts at us and threaten us.

I am so fucking far down the rabbit hole that the mad hatter's just passed me a fucking cup cake.

I can't see your point AskBasil.
If a woman harassed me I wouldn't be believed? Is that what you are saying?
If a man harassed me I wouldn't be believed?

My point is, it is the harassment that is the issue and there are laws to deal with this regardless of gender. How effective these laws are was not the point. I was saying you could complain and not be accused of a hate crime.

The wider point about women being sexually assaulted and not being believed is not one I was addressing. Your dismissive response and accusation that I was saying something that I wasn't is the kind of over reaction that means arguments are dismissed by teenagers. And others.

"If I was having a shower in a public changing room and a woman waved her breasts at me and I felt threatened I could complain. "

Please explain exactly how a rampaging lesbian is going to threaten or harass you with her wildly swinging mammary glands?

As, opposed, say, to this lesbians right to not have to look at a penis when I'm in the changing room, ever.......................

I guess the title says it all 'Acceptance without exception'.

It says that:
"This includes making sure that trans people are housed in the correct
prison and supported to live according to their self-identified gender."
So, ANYONE who says they are female should be moved to a womens prison, according to Stonewall, whether they have done anything to 'transition' or not, and whether or not they are a convicted rapist or not.

It is what you might have expected, self-identified gender identity trumps everything according to this document, and only slight lapse is that they think 'sex by deception' needs clarification (although they do really seem to think a trans persons right to privacy should remove the informed part of informed consent -- i.e. the transphobic idea that you should be fully informed before consenting, and if someone does not reveal their trans status, or lies about it, or tries to conceal it, then you are no longer actually consenting).

They also oppose the spousal veto (i.e. a womans right to CHOOSE whether or not she wants to enter a same-sex marriage when hubby announces he is trans..........).

I'm disgusted withn Stonewall, frankly, and I won't be giving them a penny ever again. Oh, and they do acknowledge that the lesbian and gay community can be a bit 'transphobic', so obviously feel they need to re-educate us all..............

Lesbians, gay men, straight under the bus...................

Think you'd be believed, bitofacow?

Think again.

We may live in the west, but a man's word -even when he's identifying as a woman - is still worth more than a woman's.

And also you think that's the solution? Complain? So it's all OK?

I suppose it doesn't matter that 1 in 4 women are raped or sexually assaulted, because we can complain, right?

FFS

If any man can identify as a woman, he can stroll into the shower you're using after swimming and wave his willy at you and if you complain, you're guilty of a hate crime

I was under the impression if someone harassed you you could complain. If I was having a shower in a public changing room and a woman waved her breasts at me and I felt threatened I could complain. The genitalia of the person doing the harassing is not necessarily the issue.

"Trans women identifying as women take nothing away from me and my strengths and my identity"

Men identifying as women however, take your legal rights away from you.

If men can get pregnant too, sacking you for being pregnant is no longer sex discrimination.

If any man can identify as a woman, he can stroll into the shower you're using after swimming and wave his willy at you and if you complain, you're guilty of a hate crime.

If you get sent to prison and a rapist in the men's prison across town identifies as a woman, he can move into your cell and you can't complain because he's a woman now penis, bollocks, beard and all.

If you're OK with all that, bully for you. But don't throw the rest of us under the bus. Because most women aren't OK with this.

Anyone seen this from Stonewall? Any thoughts? www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/a_vision_for_change.pdf

If I had a daughter I'd tell her honestly that I have never "felt" female. She wouldn't be all that surprised I think. I'd tell her that I don't "feel" male either.
I'd ask her how in her generation someone like me would describe myself (fluid, non binary, whatever) and then I'd explain that I never felt the need and still don't fit another label because I don't believe female gender should define me at all. I'd try discussing how I am female sex but that I think gender is just another way of imposing stereotypes.

You're wrong there. Maybe you'll see it one day.

^^ Now there is an argument that would make a teenager have a tantrum. In fact it makes me want to have a tantrum.

Trans women identifying as women take nothing away from me and my strengths and my identity

You're wrong there. Maybe you'll see it one day.

There is the trend atm isn't there was just starting when 1 of mydds were 15 she had a friend at her drama club who was identifying as FM trans at the time the girl had a gender neutral name but said she was a they. I said to dd that people could identify as a purple dinosaur if it made them happy but there is no such thing as a Male or Female brain etc Dd is now 19 and seems to get it now and i also said her generation was not the first to do this.although i do think it is extreme and quite unsettiling