DD and the trans thing. She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

The generation argument doesn't quite cut it. I'm 22, the majority of my friendship group are gender critical. One of my closest friends is FtM trans through genuine dysphoria rather than "I feel like a man", he despairs at the transactivists and their "chestfeeding" and "man dick". My younger brother is 17 and will engage in gendercritical debate with me, and can see that much of what transactivism stands for is inherently harmful to women. It balances out some of the Tumblr transactivism he's exposed to online.

I know some very nice and vulnerable transwomen. I also know an equally vulnerable transwomen who is convinced they are actually a woman, that their lived experience as a woman is identical to mine (despite having transitioned in their late 40s and fathered children) and is very aggressive to any woman who dares to suggest otherwise.

This person is already rubbing their hands with glee about the proposed change in the law so that they can assert their right to get changed in communal women's changing rooms and bigots won't be able to complain about the fact that he is exposing his penis to all and sundry.

I don't think they're unusual. Because their rights are more important than women's rights. And I'm amazed that other women think that's acceptable.

And misogynistic, as men never get this shit.

I read a long argument on twitter between a transactivist and Arielle Scarcella, who is a liberal feminist lesbian activist. It was about whether saying you only wanted women with vaginas and breasts as a lesbian, as she did, was transphobic. That's not even the hardcore radfem view. The transactivist and all the trans allies didn't grasp that you can't regulate sexual orientation. To try to do so is homophobic. To say lesbians can't rule out biological men with or without penises without being bullied, guilt tripped and shamed is homophobic.

I might try asking them whether they mean that only transgender people have genders.

Actually, though, I think all this gender-confusion reminds me more of my granny than of a modern free-thinking movement. 'What's 'e wearing that for then? Does 'e think 'e's a girl or what?'

Lancelottie That's exactly the answer my daughter gives me. It's a very effective way of stamping on any sort of rational discussion. A lot of people are using the 'if you're not trans you have no right to question it' argument. So a lot of people don't question it. I think it is important to have open discussions about it, especially where it concerns children, teenagers and young adults but it is becoming increasingly more difficult to discuss without being either accused of 'not understanding' or being 'transphobic'.

Yes, I have asked. DS's answer was 'I think it's something only trans people can understand. You don't understand because you're not trans.'

Which is probably true, though possibly not as he meant it.

I think that's at least part of the confusion.

That's a really good way of thinking about it, vestal.

There's another thread on here where a "genderqueer" man has joined a company so they have designated a set of women's cubicle toilets (obviously it was going to be the women's) as gender neutral. So all the women squeeze into the set of cubicle toilets which are women only. Because they are uncomfortable at sharing such an intimate space with men. Women do not want this. It's not clear yet to people what they are being expected to give up.

I must say, their point of view that 'trans people just are, there are dozens of genders now, god mum you're like so old-fashioned, your generation doesn't understand it' is not entirely convincing, as arguments go.

Have you asked them what the difference between a gender and an individual personality is, in their opinion?

Those dozens of genders are just dozens of individual personalities, who still belong either in the women's bathroom or the men's, likewise with prisons, etc.

There are no different prisons for people who like kittens and those who like dogs, so why segregate according to "gender"?

I've only just seen this thread but to go back to OP - I have just watched this amazing video from a detransitioned lesbian:
purplesagefem.wordpress.com/2017/02/16/video-faye-haze-reconciles-with-being-female/
and I wonder if it would be useful to show it to your daughter. There is another current thread on MN about a lesbian being bullied at school for not being trans - there is some strange thinking going on in school and it's not all just healthy 'acceptance'.

I've had this same conversation with two of my teens (the third is too taken up with his own misery to give two hoots about anyone else's inner conflict - might get as far as 'boy, girl, who cares, bog off').

I must say, their point of view that 'trans people just are, there are dozens of genders now, god mum you're like so old-fashioned, your generation doesn't understand it' is not entirely convincing, as arguments go.

jaxing
You think that a fully male human who has had no surgery or hormones, and who has a fully working penis, should be a rape
Counsellor, have a place in a
Woman's refuge or women's prison, just because they wear a dress and makeup and call themselves a woman?

OP - I'd recommend googling transgendertrend and 4thwavenow. You'll then find links to other sites. Keep calm and be reflective with your dd. We found calm reason worked best, waiting for her to bring subjects up and the gently questioning her beliefs with lots of why's?.

Think this is great advice.

My daughter was a very scared individual when she identified as trans for 4 years. She was also very vulnerable. She was also (and still is) 'very nice'.

She was scared because the people she was chatting to on the internet told her she'd die if she didn't transition. All the literature she read told her she would probably kill herself if she didn't get validation.

To me the trans movement is a lot of smoke and mirrors. There are sites with information on how to convince the medical gatekeepers that you are the real deal and have GID (gender identity disorder) and are not mearly GNC (gender non conforming). However, especially in children, those raised in families with strict gender perceptions or those raised in homophobic environments, GNC can cause the same feelings of dysphoria as GID. Trans activists (not just the shouty angry ones - ones who influence government policy) now dismiss studies that show between 60-90% desistance in youths who think they are trans as they include those who are GNC alongside those with GID. So those that desisted were never trans in the first place, more smoke and mirrors. Of course those desisters weren't trans in the first place, that's the whole point, but they really did believe they were.

My daughter had intense dysphoria, she would cry herself to sleep as she couldn't wait to be 16 so she could get top surgery and hormones. I'm very liberal, but I didn't think her having a mastectomy at 16, and making other permanent changes to her body was the solution to her future self. She would never be happy, there would always be the big elephant in the room, being fundamentally a natal female.

OP - I'd recommend googling transgendertrend and 4thwavenow. You'll then find links to other sites. Keep calm and be reflective with your dd. We found calm reason worked best, waiting for her to bring subjects up and the gently questioning her beliefs with lots of why's?.

I'm all for having that discussion. It's not the gender critical that want to have that discussion shut down in the name of inclusivity Orwellian censorship

It far less analytical to claim there's not at least a discussion to be had as regard gender as a social construct.

No help either, but following. Struggling with this with DS. I think school is a massive melting pot where they all fuel each other.
I do think a couple of years in the 'real world' will help. He's just come back from a week's work experience at a plumbing firm (he wants an apprenticeship) and seems happier than ever.
Sadly, he has to go to school and deal with this on a daily basis.

I actually love her unquestioning on the transitions. How cool is your daughter? I wish I had more friends like her at school.

I'm not dismissing your concerns at all, I just wanted to note that she's awesome and given how analytical and open her thinking seems to be, she'll probably come to her own conclusions quite successfully.

Jaxx, in its submission to the select committee chaired by Maria Miller, the professional body of psychologists who deal with prison inmates raised the issue of some male prisoners pretending to be trans to gain access to women's prisons, whether because they thought they would get an easier ride, or because they were sexual predators. They seemed to think this would be a real, and statistically significant problem (bear in mind that there are approximately 100 male sex offenders in prison for every female one).

My question for you would be "how do we tell the difference?" If you concede that some prisoners in the male estate are genuinely trans and some are taking the piss, how are we to decide which is which? I look at the likes of David ("Davina") Ayrton and Ian Huntley (if indeed that is true) and just think these are not women, they are men who are taking the piss (and men who are severely mentally disturbed to boot).

I want a system which protects transwomen like the prisoner who committed suicide in Armley jail last year, but which also protects women prisoners (the vast majority of whom are in prison for non-violent offences, and over half of whom have histories of being physically or sexually abused or both as children) from predatory men.

How do you propose we do this? How do we protect both sets of people, the genuine transwomen, and the female prison population, without pandering to the predatory men seeking to use a loophole in the law for their own ends?

This isn't about mere feelings versus rights, as you claim, it is about one set of rights (the right of transwomen in prison to be safe) versus another set of rights (the rights of women in the female estate to be safe).

I'm still waiting for justification of transwomen in rape crisis centres.