DD and the trans thing. She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

Venus "Point out where I have ever used a pronoun to a person that they have said they don't want used. Go on. Frankly I find you one of the most disingenuous posters on this site"

Yep goady, that's me. You on the other hand..........

Tone policing is often a form of trolling. Speaking completely in general terms.

No need to name me in your rant, was there? Very rude to talk about me without addressing it to me. I'm right here.

Sally I am puzzled as to who is diverting who from what.
The thread is about how the OP can discuss the trans issue with her daughter. I am suggesting that the tone taken by many on the thread will alienate the teenager daughter.

The substantive issue on this thread is about communicating with teenagers, tone is therefore vital surely?

Would you like to stop being so goady then?

Vestal I was thinking about the threads on MN rather than wider society. I can absolutely see why both sides find these terms offensive. What bothers me is the terms this topic is discussed in.

Someone comes on the thread wanting to be educated and is faced with an an echo chamber of sneering, dismissive attitudes. The OP asked about discussing it with her teenager and many posts work on the absolute assumption that the prevailing MN orthodoxy is entirely correct and any other view is absolutely wrong. And not just wrong, but foolish and wrong.

This is obviously a complex issues and the goal posts are moving all the time. The extreme trans lobby clearly has the potential to do great harm. This being the case do we not need to meet their arguments with calm and logic. Responding in kind and ratcheting up the emotional invective is only going to force people into opposing camps. Venus being a case in point.

How about "I find that term offensive for x reason". As had been pointed out if you do not want to be offended by the use of 'cis' why would you offend others by using a pronoun they do not want?

But it is the other way round, is it not?

It is those clamouring most loudly that using the pronouns corresponding to their sex is "actual violence", because they do not identify with them, who insist on calling others "cis", despite having been told, time and again, that the women on here do not identify as cis and do not want to be called that.

There are many people who want the pronounds corresponding to their sex to be used for them; it is not always an insult.

But no one actively wants to be called "cis", I am pretty sure. Many tolerate it, but no one really wants to be called that.

Point out where I have ever used a pronoun to a person that they have said they don't want used. Go on. Frankly I find you one of the most disingenuous posters on this site.

And sanctimoniously tone policing others is rarely a good idea. If you want to leave, that's up to you. But it's a bit rich for you to be banging on about self-righteousness.

Venus your lack of respect for the views of others is apparent. I would hesitate to call other people's views "stupid" as I think it moves the discussion no where.

How about "I find that term offensive for x reason". As had been pointed out if you do not want to be offended by the use of 'cis' why would you offend others by using a pronoun they do not want?

So it is OK for you to offend others, but you are horrified when someone offends you.

I come on these threads to try to understand views I am not comfortable with. I want to engage with a swiftly moving debate. However, the tone of self righteousness and a refusal to engage reasonably, if not politely, with others makes me leave.

And yes, I find the loaded term "cis", frequently used to put women down, as offensive as non dysphoric transpeople and trans allies appear to find "misgendering".

And no, you don't have to respect views you think are stupid. The view holders are different to the views.

Both ways, I think you'll find, Bitof.

Cis used = blue touch paper. Rational thought is gone, offensive, overwrought invective ensues.

A discussion does not indeed have to imply views will be changed, but other people's views have to be respected even if you don't agree with them. This lack of respect is absolutely the case frequently on MN trans discussions.

A discussion doesn't have to be a "two way thing" in the sense that all opinions are equally valid. I'm sure we can think of lots of hypotheticals where that isn't the case. What is required is to listen to the other person and engage with their points. It's perfectly fine to only disagree and challenge.

Well, I as an individual am totally bloody offended by the idea that anyone who doesn't identify as trans is automatically "cis".

(And I don't think that "offence" is necessarily a reason not to say something, I am just using your definition of what's allowed or not.)

how many times do you people have to be told just how fucking offensive that is?

It's as offensive to use "cis" as a prefix as it is to refer to trans people by the wrong pronoun. It's allowed on Mumsnet as long as it's not intended to offend an individual.

She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

She probably thinks the same about you OP. You refer to the topic as "the trans thing", use "MtT" & "FtT", and mention that "boys wear skirts"in the school. It doesn't seem like you're going to be willing to look at your own beliefs but expect her to change hers. It's not a discussion you're after as that implies a 2 way thing.

And GanstaRat please don't make up crap.

Wow, GangstaRat. Receipts or it didn't happen. (Spoiler: it didn't happen.)

Also, who are the "ciswomen" you are talking about? Are you - gasp! - assigning gender designations to people who haven't consented to them? You do know that's actualfax violence, right?

And fuck right off with "ciswomen". You have no right to assume anyone's gender, do you?

That is such utter bullshit, Gangsta. Don't be so idiotic. Like that has ever been seriously suggested by the reasonable posters in feminism chat.

Isn't it good that she's not a bigot? I know MN is very transphobic/misogynistic (multiple debates on here pointing out the ways in which transphobia hurts ciswomen have led to posters freely admitting they'd advocate hurting ciswomen in order to punish trans people - for example the posts about women being subject to genital inspection to be allowed to use a public toilet, and a few posters said everyone should have to carry mandatory proof of sex cards which they would have to show on demand to use a public toilet).

It's one thing to encourage critical thinking but it sounds like you want tips for how to turn your child into a bigot!