DD and the trans thing. She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

From my 16 year old DS:

Hi, I'm 16 (almost 17) and am transsexual. I came out at 14 after struggling with eating disorders, depression and self harm for over 3 years. I've always known deep down who I am, and I have genuine sex dysphoria, which is traumatising and horrible for me. When I came out, I was bullied at school for my opinions. I don't think that most children/teenagers nowadays who say they're trans actually are. I put off coming out because I knew it was becoming a trend, and I didn't want to be part of that. I think the whole thing is ridiculous and really insulting to the genuine transsexual people. I don't believe that gender and sex are different things, and I think changing rooms and bathrooms etc should be sex-segregated. There are so many people claiming to be trans and i feel it invalidates me as a person, because people associate me with the Trans activist movement, and I don't for one minute believe their ideologies. I chose to transition after years of internalised pain and distress, so I could feel comfortable in my own skin. I would advise your dd to watch Blair White and Magdalen Burns on YouTube. They aren't transphobic or homophobic - they offer an alternative viewpoint to the madness and I strongly agree withat their opinions. Most genuine trans people don't shout down others or loudly voice any misogynistic or any offensiverrors language - we just want to be happy. To your dd: please don't be swept into any of these ideologies. They are most likely homophobic and misogynistic, and will do more harm than good. You sound bright and wonderful, so keep being you and don't be a sheep either :)

I've just written to my (useless) MP - thanks for the reminder/link user1487

Although apparently if you look at it through a non-critical gender lens, it is gender dysphoria that is causing the autism, and transitioning can cure it.

The ncbi paper linked to within that article finds that ASD is ten times more likely in children and adolescents with gender dysphoria than in other children.
That's at least worth a dinner party conversation, surely.

@Datun - apologies for my crappy misspelling of your name last night - I was posting from my phone in bed without my glasses on which it appears is something I'm no longer capable of doing. And those gut = thought.

Anyway, I think there is more than 'dinner table discussion' at play here. Tony Attwood has been quoted already but there have been a number of studies - one of which showed that people with autism are 7.59% more likely to identify as trans* than NT people. See here: www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-between-autism-and-trans-identity/507509/

This isn't speculation - Tony Attwood author of Asberger's Syndrome "bible" describes how some people with autism can switch to the other gender thinking they will fit in better. Crucially, he notes that they may change their mind after a couple of years when they realise this wasn't the solution. So doesn't fit with the "there is no cure/transition or suffer" approach, and also suggests extra care and caution needed in establishing whether hormones and/or surgery is the right medical treatment. And a lot more research is needed, so that treatment is evidence based.
See also here:
tonyattwood.com.au/about-aspergers/girls-and-women-who-have-aspergers

I don't have dinner table discussions but I have read a lot about gender dysphoria and a lot about autism.

Why is a dinner table discussion worse than an online one, or a school corridor one?

Children hear about transgender issues online, from some seriously dodgy websites as well as anything more moderate. They hear about it at school, from classmates, some well informed, others not (it was news to my daughter that 'transing' didn't alter your chromosomes to be XY -- honestly, I wonder what planet she's on in science lessons sometimes).

By now, probably every secondary school in the country has at least one child who says they are transgender. DD's class has one. DS's sixth form has four. And at least two of those are, yes, on the autism spectrum.

So let's at least discuss a few 'unproven' statements about a higher chance of this in autistic youngsters, who by definition have social difficulties.

JJ
"unsubstantiated statements"?

Like what - that someone with a penis can be a female?

People are making an awful lot of unsubstantiated statements here about unproven links. Almost like you think you've 'figured it out'. I can just hear the dinner table discussions spreading this stuff around.

Well we are tackling one thing at a time. Anxiety and depression first, autism assessment and getting to grips with that, and keeping her feeling safe and loved. If being transgender is the way she needs to live and she has made a mature and considered decision, then we will of course support her. I am just so scared of the affirmative no alternative approach.

If you watch the channel 4 video, it struck me listening to the mother of one of the girl's talking about her child, how similar it was to things I have read/watched where parents discuss their child's gender dysphoria.

I also have ASD and supspect my DD does, so this topic is quite close to home for me.

I think the fact many girls are diagnosed at a much later age compared to boys, if they do get diagnosed, is another reason why many may latch on to gender dysphoria as an answer to explain the feeling of being different.

I did not learn about ASD until my early twenties. I wonder what may have happened if I had been a teen today. I certainly never felt like I fitted in, things that seem to come naturally to others just didn't for me.

The set of rules thing makes sense, the obsessive interest makes sense, the wanting to fit in when you can no longer fit with your same sex peers makes sense. I also see it as a way to visibly express an invisible difference, and couple that with rigid thinking, a delayed emotional maturity, weak sense of self and lack of social awareness, top that with a lack of diagnosis because you are female and have been masking all your life you have the perfect combination.

Yes this is a great summary. I'm sorry that your DD is suffering now.

Yes I believe I have read that too. Why is autism under diagnosed in girls?

As a pp said, girls are thought to be better at "masking" their symptoms. They are better at copying social norms despite not properly understanding them. Autism was originally thought of (and still is by some) as an extreme "male brain". It was believed to be a male-only disorder. As a result it was overlooked in girls. Even now it is more understood that girls and women can be affected too, many people aren't aware it may present differently in females compared to males and the male type is seen as the norm.

Recently in the news it was revealed that many women who go in to have their children assessed for autism are discovering that they have it themselves.

If you have time, there is a video here that gives a bit of detail: www.channel4.com/news/girls-affected-by-autism

Here is an article that explores the link between autism and gender dysphoria:
spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/living-between-genders/

I also see it as a way to visibly express an invisible difference

That gave me a jolt.

This all makes complete sense to me. My 18 yr old DD says she Is MtT. This announcement came just after the penny dropped that she may be autistic, which in turn explains her intense anxiety and depression. The set of rules thing makes sense, the obsessive interest makes sense, the wanting to fit in when you can no longer fit with your same sex peers makes sense. I also see it as a way to visibly express an invisible difference, and couple that with rigid thinking, a delayed emotional maturity, weak sense of self and lack of social awareness, top that with a lack of diagnosis because you are female and have been masking all your life you have the perfect combination.

There is most definitely some sort link with autism. I'm autistic and a member of a group on Facebook (mainly mid to late teens to late twenties) and there are so many that are trans. It is very concerning and whilst some will be genuine, I feel a lot are down to that they don't feel they fit in with other women or men so they feel they must be the other. I have some concerns that some get transgenderism as a special interest and get very wrapped up in it and convince themselves they must be transgender whilst reading up on everything around it. As for the detransitioning, I think a lot aren't quite at that stage yet, as in most seem to be relatively recent transitions (in the last couple of years) or they don't feel they can admit they aren't actually trans and have made a mistake. A lot of the online autistic community (as in among autistics rather than parents of autistics) is very very trans supportive and a lot get very aggressive at those who speak out against transgenderism. It doesn't help that a lot are of the age where tumblr is the main area they hang out on. I can see how they can get wrapped up in all the transgender stuff, it's the same as another autistic getting really caught up in say trains or world war 2, it's just a different topic that then leads to them getting influenced by it, whereas other interests aren't so influential and don't have a way out of something. There are so maybe examples in the group of people that don't feel they fit in because they fit the stereotypical view point so they feel they must be the other, and I think a lot comes down to the fact that autistic people don't really fit in anyway so they are trying to find somewhere to fit in and this transgender community seems to fit well enough at least at the start. Sorry that was quite long, hopefully it makes some sort of sense.

Exactly M0stly. They think they are being wrong footed because their role is wrong.

Although if that is the case and after transition they still feel wrong, wouldn't you see more detransitions?

If you are concerned about the Second Reading of the Gender Identity (Protected Characteristic) Bill 2016-2017 scheduled for 24 February 2017 and its impact upon young adults and children please refer to this website for a comprehensive overview and how best to respond to protect the rights of children and young people: www.transgendertrend.com/gender-identity-rights-of-the-child/

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't some cases of high-functioning autism involve people managing to cope by coming up with rule-based systems to help them navigate the social situations neurotypical people cope with instinctively? It strikes me that some of the messiest pieces of social interaction going - because it's so variable, and so many people "buck against it" - are the social interactions surrounding the construct of gender. Someone neurotypical whose personality doesn't quite fit society's gender boxes will simply say "fuck that for a game of soldiers" and happily break the rules. Whereas someone with autism, whose only anchor in a confusing world is an explicit set of rules to make sense of social interactions, when their personality doesn't fit the rules, may think "I need the other set of rules - the ones for people of the opposite biological sex."

jig

I wonder if autism is the key? I should imagine transactivists would want it minimised. But it would certainly explain why so many children are coming out as trans.

Drum - girls are generally those gut to be much better at what's called masking than boys - basically acting out normal social interactions at school so they appear the same as other children but they pay for it when they're home because it's very hard work.

2 of the 2 MtT I know have autism.

I believe this is also the case for girls. Perhaps it's larger in boys but girls and women with autism are under-diagnosed

Yes I believe I have read that too. Why is autism under diagnosed in girls?

I really wish the link with autism could be studied. I don't have any children with autism so I am not familiar with all the symptoms.

The 'not fitting in' aspect sounds applicable to trans. But I don't know what else.

There is a significantly larger percentage of autism in number of boys who transition

I believe this is also the case for girls. Perhaps it's larger in boys but girls and women with autism are under-diagnosed.

Interesting that a pp said cases of teenage girls with anorexia are decreasing and gender dysphoria increasing. Eating disorders are also linked with autism.

No I agree but just wanted to mention them as they do get stick, although well able to defend themselves. Good point about women's hour. I would love to see Miranda on Loose women actually

(And, Mercy, I very much doubt that Miranda and Helen were the transactivists Tiggy was applauding. But I suppose I could be wrong.)