The effect of porn on teenage boys and young men

So Beach - you must think that the majority of men (all who watch porn) should be ashamed of themselves and their desire to watch it ?

But to do that we need it recognised as hate speech.

Not disagreeing with your sentiment, but we don't actually need that. Before the Internet era, there were enforced laws on what was permissible for publication and distribution and no mention of porn being hate speach. Retailers, publishers, distributors and producers could be held legally accountable, including criminal charges being brought. Granted it didn't completely eradicate the problem but it at lease kept it to a backstreet or top-shelf trickle compared to the overwhelming flood we have currently. Having defined standards of what is considered offensive and holding accountable the various organisations that facilitate distribution (e.g. ISPs, Social Media, search engines, hosting services etc) is very possible, there just isn't enough pressure being brought to bear.

"yeah but what if the world was completely different and women were doing lots of sexualized violence against other women too" is not only tedious but also misogynistic."

I didn't say that though.

Yes but Beachcomber what is the goal? Is the goal to eliminate of or reduce access to porn period? Or is it to campaign against male produced porn encoded with patriarchal tropes?

Those are two completely different agendas that involve completely different courses of action.

And it isn't happening in my 'imaginary world'. There are women who claim to create women friendly, 'feminist' porn at the moment.

So this is a clear statement that men should be ashamed that they get enjoyment from watching porn. I mean - how could anyone not be ashamed that their body reacts in a pleasurable way to filmed abuse (as you claim it all to be) ? What can be realistically be done about that ? The shaming doesn't seem to be enough to keep the shackles on it at the moment.

No it doesn't. We need criminal sanctions for the making and distribution of pornography at the very least.

But to do that we need it recognised as hate speech.

Qwerty, I'm talking about pornography as it currently exists in the real world.

Your framing of several subjects on this board as "yeah but what if the world was completely different and women were doing lots of sexualized violence against other women too" is not only tedious but also misogynistic.

It's "women do it too in my imaginary world". It isn't feminism on any level and I am finding it increasingly offensive and disrespectful. You are using our lives, our oppression to indulge in anti-woman thought experiments. Nasty stuff.

growapear guess we'd just have to pay for the 'romance'....but would male partners accept this of their girlfriend/wife in the same way we are supposed to accept our bf/dh watching porn?

I don't think you are supposed to accept it all, that's entirely up to you. Romance is to do with an expression of love - and so no I don't think they would accept it at all.

The shaming doesn't seem to be enough to keep the shackles on it at the moment.

No, because to re-iterate, the shame is part of the thrill.

Repression does not inhibit sexual expression: it constitutes it. That is why you get people getting off on being told they're a 'bad boy' - on doing something they're not supposed to do. Fantasy is defined by the forbidden.

Interesting, i suppose I never thought of it that way.

OK - here's a thought.

Which has developed an analysis that porn is filmed prostitution, hate speech and misogynistic propaganda

So this is a clear statement that men should be ashamed that they get enjoyment from watching porn. I mean - how could anyone not be ashamed that their body reacts in a pleasurable way to filmed abuse (as you claim it all to be) ? What can be realistically be done about that ? The shaming doesn't seem to be enough to keep the shackles on it at the moment.

porn is filmed prostitution

Indeed, but would porn filmed by women for women still be filmed prostitution?

growapear guess we'd just have to pay for the 'romance'....but would male partners accept this of their girlfriend/wife in the same way we are supposed to accept our bf/dh watching porn?

If all expressions of male sexuality held no shame I'm afraid to say we would be in a considerably worse place than we are now. I don't how to say this without sounding alarmist but the explosion in pornographic material in my mind is a result of the unshackling of male sexuality - a lid has been kept on it by ideas of virtue and shame for a long long time but now technology has allowed those "barriers" to be removed and this is the result. It makes me sound like a pearl clutching conservative but there you go.

I see what you mean. But sexuality is not a force upon which a lid is kept. That's a Freudian fallacy that Foucault skewed. Sexuality is a dynamic. Repression does not inhibit sexual expression: it constitutes it. That is why you get people getting off on being told they're a 'bad boy' - on doing something they're not supposed to do. Fantasy is defined by the forbidden.

It's not that sexual expression is any regarded as any less shameful now. People are as ridden with sexual angst as they ever were. Rather, it's that its field of expression has widened massively - mainly because in an age in which the old industries have gone, sex is big business.

Morality has collapsed - but that is different from a 'lid'. Rightfully, ethics encourage a mentality which is less "I really want to do this, but I will be ashamed if I do so" and more "I don't want to do this at all". Morality should socialise people not to want things that are morally harmful, in other words.

What should be the real question is what role is porn to play in women's lives? Is porn inherently predicated on male desire and female disempowerment? Can there be porn for women? Can there be a sexual capitalism which serves female sexuality? There is no theoretical reason why not.

Yes there is. It is called feminism. Which has developed an analysis that porn is filmed prostitution, hate speech and misogynistic propaganda that exists as a reflection of and as a tool of male supremacist society. So let's look at what you call "the real question" from a female centric perspective.

What should be the real question is what role is misogynistic hate speech to play in women's lives? Is misogynistic propaganda inherently predicated on male desire and female disempowerment? Can there be misogynistic propaganda for women? Can there be a sexual capitalism of misogynistic hate speech which serves female sexuality?

I know this isn't a very good analogy growapear, you say that men like to look at naked women and today that pursuit seems to hold little shame

I think it does still hold some shame, just not as much.

If all expressions of male sexuality held no shame I'm afraid to say we would be in a considerably worse place than we are now. I don't how to say this without sounding alarmist but the explosion in pornographic material in my mind is a result of the unshackling of male sexuality - a lid has been kept on it by ideas of virtue and shame for a long long time but now technology has allowed those "barriers" to be removed and this is the result. It makes me sound like a pearl clutching conservative but there you go.

I am reminded of the viscous (female) compere of a comedy club I used to go to who's warm up was to find young couples in the audience and "advise" the woman that all the men ever wanted was blowjobs and anal sex. There was nervous chuckling amongst the audience of all ages.

Women often like to be 'romanced', so would it be just as acceptable for the majority of us women to seek (interactive) romance from ppl other than our partners?

Can't really imagine how this would work as from a male perspective, romance is the act of persuading a woman she should have sex with you by being especially nice to her over a period of time. Without the end goal - are men really interested in romance ?

Sorry for being cynical - just being honest lol

At the moment, men own most of the 'means of production' as it were. Whoever owns Pornhub or whatever else will be a man. Hence there are zillions of videos of 18-25 year old women having their faces ejaculated on. But suppose women ran porn empires? That could be radical.

Meant: No one is going to sort porn out now.

I wonder how they will expect us to sort it out for them?

No one is going to sort porn it now. They couldn't if they wanted to. It's out of the box - done. The internet is not policeable, and neither is social media and the online data-currency markets with which it interfaces.

What should be the real question is what role is porn to play in women's lives? Is porn inherently predicated on male desire and female disempowerment? Can there be porn for women? Can there be a sexual capitalism which serves female sexuality? There is no theoretical reason why not.

I wonder how they will expect us to sort it out for them?

BertrandRussel, at the moment it seems to consist of an expectation that we wax our fanjos, develop a death grip and participate in increasingly hard-core sex acts practically on the first date.

Phil,

Well I am nervous acknowledging it here, as I know it may be seen as an attempt to minimise the impact on women/girls. But it isn't really meant as "what about the menz", just that our society is going through changes. Some men (many?, most?) are reacting poorly.

I must say that hitting a youngster when they are in early teens with massive doses of pornography....right when the brain is going through a lot of changes....

And don't say that's what romance novels are for, they're only the 'mayfair' equivalent

I know this isn't a very good analogy growapear, you say that men like to look at naked women and today that pursuit seems to hold little shame (whether he is in or out of a relationship, by all appearances) .... Women often like to be 'romanced', so would it be just as acceptable for the majority of us women to seek (interactive) romance from ppl other than our partners?
Not having a go, but interested in your (male) viewpoint.

done speak.

I In the past it has been tempered by ideas of virtue and shame, those appear to have been relaxed somewhat.

Added to which there is the anonymity and ubiquitous accessibility of porn. In the past you had to risk embarrassment queuing in the newsagents with a copy of Fiesta. Now you can access anything you like with a smartphone.

namechange, I don't know, maybe I'm too optimistic about it. I know my DP would say something in that workplace situation and my brother and Dad definitely would too. But I can see that's not exactly a representative sample! I wonder what the stats about how many men would watch porn.