Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

Also - i don't think I am a danger to women, so you telling me I am is offensive. I don't get why you would be surprised by this ?

But i asked you earlier why you thought that men were not interested in ending violence and you said you didn't think that ?

I suppose that's the problem isn't it? Men are focused entirely on the offence caused to themselves rather than the actual bodily harm caused to women.

Why aren't they hearing what women are actually saying, which is that there's a terrible problem in our society, namely that men are a danger to women

See - again, I just read this as "Sparrowhawk is saying that I am a danger to woman".

Where did anyone say they wanted to 'guilt men as a class'?

Well for the avoidance of doubt my points are:

• Better sex education across the board, coming from a secular foundation as opposed to a conservative/religous bias.
• Fostering of empathy amongst boys and men, particularly towards women/girls.

In addition by all means try to guilt men as a class over the issue, but I fear that will be a long wait for a train that isn't coming.

Presumably, Sparrowhawk, because they know they are a danger to women. The "nice" ones acknowledge this by, for example, crossing to the other side of the road from a lone woman when walking down a dark street. The not so nice ones deny that it has anything to do with them. Often on internet fora. The even worse ones deny it ever happens.

Why aren't they hearing what women are actually saying, which is that there's a terrible problem in our society, namely that men are a danger to women, and women would like non-violent men to get involved in trying to make it stop?

'If we moved the needle to a point where the line for the overwhelming majority of sexual encounters was a positive life affirming and pleasurable endeavor for all concerned we wouldn't have quite the same issue naming the problem when it comes to assault/rape.'

How do you think that could be done Dervel?

'I have no trouble accepting the figure that 1 in 4 women have been assaulted/raped'
I think the 1 in 4 figure is bollocks, personally, or at least it's a very conservative estimate based on reported assaults. Every single woman I have ever spoken to about sexual assault (and it's quite a number) has been assaulted. Out of those women, two of them reported it (and both men were convicted).

'I think there may be a problem with this class analysis thing, although I'm not advocating not doing it'
I'm not sure what this means - can you clarify?

So do you think that's what men are hearing when women talk about male violence against women?

Yes.

Ah, that explains a lot. So do you think that's what men are hearing when women talk about male violence against women? Because it's not what I'm saying.

It feels like you are saying that "men do lots of bad things and you're a man". What is the point of such a statement ?

I have often said that the fact the line between common everyday heterosexual sex and rape should tell us something is deeply dysfunctional with common everyday heterosexual sex.

If we moved the needle to a point where the line for the overwhelming majority of sexual encounters was a positive life affirming and pleasurable endeavor for all concerned we wouldn't have quite the same issue naming the problem when it comes to assault/rape.

I think there may be a problem with this class analysis thing, although I'm not advocating not doing it. I have had a number of female friends and partners who have wrestled with experiences of assault/rape. My support is not born out of some collective guilt I feel on behalf of my gender, but entirely based on the quality of connections I enjoy with women. In short it's more motivated by empathy as opposed to guilt.

I have no trouble accepting the figure that 1 in 4 women have been assaulted/raped as this aligns regrettably with what women have told me that have opened up to me. It is a struggle to make that case to my male peers sometimes as I can point their nose at the statistic, but as it doesn't resonate with their experience it's a tough sell.

Another component which I appreciate if you dig into it might make me sexist as I count myself in this is that a lot of us men are socialized to be protective of women. A stat such as the 1 in 4 broadly means we're failing in that regard which is intimately tied to our own notions of masculinity.

I didn't say men have no interest. You said that violence being somehow 'to do' with you makes you prickle. What does that mean exactly?

What makes you think I (or other men) have "no interest" in ending violence ?

It's not 'to do' with men in the sense that they're responsible for it, but it would be good if they were at least concerned about and interested in making it stop, don't you think?

They dissociate themselves from it. Nothing to do with me that some bloke batters his wife. The implication that it is somehow "to do" with me because i happen to be a man is something I would prickle at as well.

In your experience growapear, do men have an opinion/attitude about the fact that fellow men commit these crimes, or do they just dissociate themselves entirely and not think about it?

An example is when there are articles in mainstream media about violence against women or harassment of women on public transport. The discussion is always about how 'people' harass women, rather than how men harass women. Once you state that actually it's men who rape women and men and it's men who harass women on the street suddenly the discussion is out of bounds, you're being a man hater etc etc, even though it's a fact.

This isn't necessarily a situation where I say I've been assaulted - I get that that's awkward. More a situation where you state the bald facts about sexual assault - eg 85,000+ women raped a year, pretty much everyone I know has been assaulted in some way, etc, not said in an emotive context, just stating a fact. It's at that point that men just shut down, won't engage, and I get the sense that it's partly because it's undeniable that the group they belong to does horrible things to the group I belong to and they don't know how to talk around that?

Again, speaking personally, I would not really know what to say either, beyond the usual "How awful/are you OK?" type thing.

I think there is a definite embarrassment factor, because you're talking about something sexual. But there's something else too - a disbelief maybe? Not that they don't believe me but that they don't want to believe me.

The men I've experienced this with though are able to show sympathy/empathy in other circumstances, and can be very supportive. But when it comes to sexual assault the reaction is different.

Men are also famously uncomfortable about anything that might require a display of sympathy or empathy. I think the idea that they are uncomfortable because they feel some kind of collective responsibility for the culture in which a man felt he would not be punished for committing a sexual assault is unlikely. I wouldn't feel that way personally.

Women are made to feel responsible for each others' actions - we are always lumped into one group while men are allowed to be individuals. The mildest form of this is the constant articles about women leaving it too late to have children, as though women just procreate spontaneously with no male input. One of the more insidious examples is the idea that women lie about sexual assault.

I'm not sure what the reaction is growapear. It doesn't come across me as a blame reaction - it seems different to that. What I've noticed is that man gets really uncomfortable and wants to distance himself asap.