Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

Men rape women in their millions across the world and women are suppose to think what? That men adore them??????

Any statement such as "men like women" or "women like men" is absurd from the get go and doesn't really warrant much thinking about.

On the other hand individuals who post statements about how they feel about men are ripe for criticism I feel.

What feminist positions do you think are illogical and/or harmful? What is the danger you fear from these feminists and their positions?

They try to teach young boys and men to be ashamed of themselves for things they can do nothing about. I actually came to this forum hoping for sensible discussion about the effects of the now obvious backlash that this is causing, but rather i just see more of the same boring old stuff about white guys are the spawn of the devil and responsible for all the worlds ills. Women obviously had nothing to do with anything since they had no power.

To be very honest though I don't give one shiny shit whether men think I like them or not, because why the fuck should I care? Do you think women think men like them? Women criticise men on a forum and men say 'women don't like us.' Men rape women in their millions across the world and women are suppose to think what? That men adore them??????

Ah now comes the argument that I am not to have any opinion on society or my or others place in it because I haven't read the correct literature. If i said go and read Niall Ferguson to see what he says about the terrible white man whom you hate so much and don't speak to me until you've finished all his books and considered his analysis....I would sound like a complete arsehole, would I not ?

I think it's the people who assert that nothing can be done about male violence that don't like men very much, or at least think very very little of them.

What feminist positions do you think are illogical and/or harmful? What is the danger you fear from these feminists and their positions?

But you feel threatened by it, which is an excellent thing.

I wouldn't say I feel threatened by it. I actually agree with most of it. What i think is dangerous is that a lot feminists actually just don't like men very much but they try to put themselves behind the spotlight and pretend their positions are logical and harmless because at least they aren't murderers (like the men). I would place you and your chums on this forum firmly into that category for the removal of any doubt should there have been any.

Yes. To the last thing. Well done you do sort of get it. Progress!!

Your maleness is not just a physical characteristic. It is a social, cultural and political position. And, in a world where white men still have disproportionate money and power, it is likely to be one from which you have significantly benefited.

Our identities are not simply individual - they are formed in collectives too. Go away and read some Iris Marion Young, for heaven's sake, and come back when you're better informed.

I sort of get it, I can see how it might be attractive to consider yourself hard done by rather than to consider yourself to be part of the group that causes the most suffering in the world. But it's pretty sickening too, on a personal level.

Let me try to put this in words you will understand. I am not part of "a group" from which you can usefully deduce anything about my character, likes or dislikes etc on account of my biological sex or the colour of my skin. People who make judgements about other people about whom they know they nothing based on physical characteristics as per my example are the ones with the problem. Who is doing that ? Having identified that I am a man and some men are violent - what can usefully be done to move things forward ? Trying to make me ashamed that I am white ? Telling me I should "check my privilege" and get out the way ?

As irritating as I find you growapear it is a very positive thing that people like you engage with feminism. If you actually thought it was as pointless as you make out you wouldn't bother with it. But you feel threatened by it, which is an excellent thing.

'Am i catching on ?'

No, you're not actually. You're making yourself out to be very very very stupid. I don't actually think it's deliberate, I think you've stuck yourself in an untenable position and now you have to say idiotic things to make out like you believe your own bullshit.

Poor white men! My heart breaks for them!!

Don't you feel sorry for the black men too Sparrow ? Ah - I think i understand, they don't have to cross the road to avoid women because they are black and white men have oppressed them too. Am i catching on ?

Careful - your mask is slipping a bit.

But really isn't men who are the oppressed group isn't growapear? I mean how can we even give a shit about 85,000+ women raped a year when men have cross the road because people might think bad things about them???

Poor white men! My heart breaks for them!!

Oh splendid, racist bullshit as well as endless contrarianism.

Sparrow

he way in which a privileged group seems to try to claim victim status

This is to the outside world a description of the mumsnet feminist section.

clueless about the issues

Would you like me to tell you how you come across Holly ?

Your example was plain racist, and you know it.

My example was indeed racist, as it was meant to be. Your argument that it is not possible to treat white men unfairly because culture is ludicrous.

I've actually come across your mentality a lot before growapear and I find it fascinating - the way in which a privileged group seems to try to claim victim status as though they envy the ability of the oppressed group to be 'innocent.' I sort of get it, I can see how it might be attractive to consider yourself hard done by rather than to consider yourself to be part of the group that causes the most suffering in the world. But it's pretty sickening too, on a personal level.

growapear it is perfectly human for a women to fear that a man walking behind her might be dangerous - even though he might in reality be a really nice guy. She doesn't know he's a nice guy. So out of concern for her he might want to cross the road. If he is a nice guy that is. If he isn't then he wouldn't give a shit.

That's a completely stupid example. The relationship to dominant structures of power is totally different between white and black males. There is a long, oppressive history of demonising black people and cultures - and it's been largely white men who have done it. Your example was plain racist, and you know it. Not only that, but to claim on a thread about rape that white men are in some way being victimised is disingenuous in the extreme.

I'm sorry, but in everything you say, you just come over not as a representative of maleness but as someone who is utterly clueless about the issues, arguing off the top of his particularly ill-informed head. There are plenty of men who have taken more time to educate themselves about these issues, who would freely accept that there is such a thing as privilege and such a thing as culture.

I am generally very wary of pre supposing things about people based on the demographic to which they belong. I would walk a female friend home if she asked me, I would not assume that she would want me to walk her home because she was female and would be frightened of encountering men.

So I presume you never walk female friends home, never comment on how short a girl's skirt is, get upset when you see posters advising women not to get drunk/not to walk home alone, do you growapear?

If you demonise a group - and encourage fear of that group, say that group should take steps to avoid causing alarm in others. Argue the group only has itself to blame and bears collective responsibility for the way it is treated etc.

you see Dervel ?

statistically, yes they are.

Are they?