Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

growapear if you really want to address the issue of male violence then what you could have done right at the beginning of the thread is to listen and engage. Instead you've posted pages and pages of NAMALT, nit picking argumentative posts which seem to suggest you don't think that anything anyone says here is of worth. Which suggests that you're not really interested in addressing anything.

Here are some things you could do. Do you have any male friends? You could have a conversation with them about any of the recent news stories that relate to male violence and women. See what their attitudes are, and challenge anyone who has a sexist or misogynistic response. You could write to your MP to express your support for issues around domestic violence, or support for rape victims as these issues arise in national politics. If you can afford it you could support women's aid/rape crisis or similar, and tell everyone on your social media that you are. I'm sure I could think of more. What do you think about those ideas? Can you think of any better ones?

'Speaking as a man, the idea that I could approach a group of aggressive men and say "come on now guys you need to dispense with this violent mind set" and everything would just be rosy is completely insane.'

Yes it is insane, which is why I never suggested it.

Men certainly had no problem controlling women's behaviour in the past, until women put a stop to it. I don't buy the bullshit that they can't control men's behaviour. I think they just don't really want to.

the military trains men to be more violent in a more efficient manner so that men can carry on being violent in an organised way while getting paid for it - how is that stopping male violence??

Because violently resisting (and being able to violently resist) other men who wish to impose a particular way of life of belief system upon you has been proven to be the most effective method of persuasion against organised violence thus far.

Speaking as a man, the idea that I could approach a group of aggressive men and say "come on now guys you need to dispense with this violent mind set" and everything would just be rosy is completely insane.

I think the discussion is going in circles here. Male rape/harrassment/violence is a problem which affects women in high numbers across the world. Yet, most men are not bad persons and many want solutions to said issues. Just talking about how men shouldn't rape, etc, won't solve it completely, at least because there's just too many millions of people in the world, so no matter what you do, some men will inevitably become rapists, harrassers, etc. Men should definitely help fighting the problem, but I can't see men controlling all other men's behaviour and decisions, because they are not a 'collective being'. There's demonstrations about rape to pressure politicians to do something more about it, but that doesn't seem enough. Solutions like women-only spaces to fight harrassment where it is more common is not of everyone's liking. The question is what specifically can people and particularly men do to prevent male violence from happening.

You've said nothing about the 'lengths and struggles' growapear. You've expressed annoyance at having to cross the road FFS! The military is an absolutely ridiculous example of stopping male violence - the military trains men to be more violent in a more efficient manner so that men can carry on being violent in an organised way while getting paid for it - how is that stopping male violence??

Tooticky I think a lot about my sons and how I want to try and influence them as they grow up. It's a very small contribution to our future society but it is one that I have the most influence over. I have high expectations of them, I don't think that violence is inevitable for them. I would hope they will be able to put that across to other men that they meet. If they see women as fully equal, by default, then that will be a good start.

rather than hearing what anyone has to say.

This is odd - because i do hear what sparrow is saying. She's repeated it frequently "men do not do anything to stop male violence".

I've heard this and addressed it several times pointing out the lengths and struggles men go to to stop violence. Then the goalposts move - I am saying that men are irredeemably violent and I'm the one who hates men. We're married to men some of us you know etc.

For the record:

I do not think men are inherently or irredeemably violent
I do not think male violence is inevitable
I do not hate men or want to 'bash' them
I do not want men to be ashamed of being men
I do want men to recognise that the violence of their fellow men causes huge suffering in the world
I don't want men to shrug and say 'what can we do, just tell women to be careful'
I want men to say 'let's do something about this'

But men don't seem to want to do anything, which is very disappointing.

why is it that you think women should be given advice on how to stay safe from men?

I don't think that, and don't believe I have said that I did so am not sure why you would think it.

Why are you bothering to discuss it at all if you believe that male violence is inevitable and unstoppable?

I don't believe that violence is unstoppable, i have pointed out that trying to control male violence is something that the human beings have been grappling with for the whole of recorded history and probably long before and so the idea that men do nothing to stop other men being violent is silly.

Pointing out that some men are bad but deliberately and consciously framing it such that all men bear a collective responsibility for the problem of other men being bad is nothing more than an attempt to make all men feel shame for the actions of other men.

I believe sparrow has pretty much admitted that is her aim anyway and she is amazed that any women wants a relationship with any man - which says I think all I need to know really.

I would point out that many of the women posting here are in relationships with men

I don't know anything about the posters here, although some of them claim to be, others are definitely not. They probably regard their partners as some how anomalous and believe themselves lucky to have found a good one etc - that is commonly the sort of thing that would be said to explain it away.

Why are you bothering to discuss it at all if you believe that male violence is inevitable and unstoppable? Surely you're wasting your own time if that's what you think. Why would it matter to you what we discuss here?

I would point out that many of the women posting here are in relationships with men, have sons and male family members and friends. Do you think that we hate them and want to "bash" them, demonise them and make them permanently ashamed of their existence?

'Women, by your own account, already know that men are dangerous. Of course, this is a minority of men, but you don't want to say that because your intention is to demonise all men and teach boys to be ashamed of the fact that they will apparently frighten people by their mere existence. Apart from this being palpably false - again what purpose does it serve to repeatedly and doggedly refuse to narrow the scope of your missives ?'

I actually don't give a fuck about demonising men and boys, because you know what? The world doesn't revolve around them and it's not actually about them. I want women to be able to acknowledge the reality of their own existence without men getting all emotional about being 'demonised.' If they're so worried about being demonised, why don't they do something about the MEN who cause them to be demonised, rather than the women who are simply stating the reality of their lives?

'And if you genuinely believe that men are such a grave threat to women, then it would indeed be perfectly rational to advise women not to enter into personal relationships with them. Good luck with that.'

If women didn't have personal relationships with men, two fewer women a week would die and thousands upon thousands of women would not be raped or sexually assaulted. So in principle it is good advice for women not to engage with men. However, in spite of everything, women like men, which is fucking amazing really and segregating society is not a solution, even though you're so in favour of it.

'Men do not have a good track record at getting other men to do what they would like them to do. If you are hoping a rapist is reading this and will change his ways then good luck with that.'
I have no idea why think that's my aim.

'If you are suggesting there are things that I can do to make men not dangerous to women so that your favourite line of man bashing would be obsolete - then I am all ears.'

I find it utterly utterly bizarre that you say I'm 'man bashing' when it is YOU who said men are inherently violent and it's YOU who thinks nothing can be done about it.

'Consider the difference between "men are potentially a danger to women" and "men are a danger to women". Also, either statement always has and always will be true and there is nothing that anyone can do about.'

Again, I'M the one who's man-bashing???? You are the one who thinks that men are irredeemably violent!

You seem to be missing the point.

so women should just shut up about it for fear of upsetting men and boys.

Women, by your own account, already know that men are dangerous. Of course, this is a minority of men, but you don't want to say that because your intention is to demonise all men and teach boys to be ashamed of the fact that they will apparently frighten people by their mere existence. Apart from this being palpably false - again what purpose does it serve to repeatedly and doggedly refuse to narrow the scope of your missives ?

So by your own admission, you are repeating stuff that all women apparently already know anyway.

And if you genuinely believe that men are such a grave threat to women, then it would indeed be perfectly rational to advise women not to enter into personal relationships with them. Good luck with that.

Men do not have a good track record at getting other men to do what they would like them to do. If you are hoping a rapist is reading this and will change his ways then good luck with that.

If you are suggesting there are things that I can do to make men not dangerous to women so that your favourite line of man bashing would be obsolete - then I am all ears.

Consider the difference between "men are potentially a danger to women" and "men are a danger to women". Also, either statement always has and always will be true and there is nothing that anyone can do about.

Oh and also forgot your other point: there's nothing at all we can ever do about male violence, it's absolutely inevitable, so women should just shut up about it for fear of upsetting men and boys.

What you seem to be saying growapear is:

Men are inherently violent
Men are a danger to women
However, we're not allowed to talk about the fact that men are a danger to women, because it's really important that the people we protect are men and boys. We don't want men and boys to be 'demonised' so women have to be quiet.
If we do talk about danger, it should only be so that women can make more effort to stop themselves getting raped and murdered, not so men can do anything about it, because it's not men's problem.

Is that it in a nutshell?

'I've never said that you can't say it. I'm saying that it serves no purpose other than to demonise all men (and boys).'

So women aren't allowed to talk about the reality of their lives because it might be bad for men and boys?

'You may do this, many men may do it as well. But the idea that anything like the vast majority of women exist in some sort of self imposed curfew because of their terror of strange men is entirely false.'

Well, yes, some women live under a state-imposed curfew. Women elsewhere don't necessarily stay at home but they do generally plan their lives around 'staying safe' ie avoiding dangerous men.

'Also as I am well aware, your intention is not to provide women with knowledge about how dangerous men are in order that they can take steps to make themselves safe from them, so now you are being disingenuous.'

I don't think you understand what the word disingenuous means.
But anyway, I never had the intention of 'providing women with knowledge about how dangerous men are in order that they can take steps to make themselves safe from them.' There are two reasons for that:

1. Women are fully aware that men are dangerous, so I don't need to provide them with any knowledge on that score. All women have to do is to refer to their own experiences of assault and rape or talk to their friends about their experiences of assault and rape, or look at the news to see how dangerous men are. No knowledge provision needed from me.
2. I have no interest in telling women to keep themselves safe from men. Women are told that all the fucking time. Why would I add my voice to that nonsense? Anyway what could I tell them to do, besides staying at home permanently and never letting a man into their house?

I have a question for you - why is it that you think women should be given advice on how to stay safe from men? Why aren't men given advice on how to stop hurting women? Or is it always women's responsibility to deal with these things and men have no responsibility at all?

So you're saying men are a danger to women, but I'm not allowed to say it for some reason?

I've never said that you can't say it. I'm saying that it serves no purpose other than to demonise all men (and boys).

Yes, women do avoid men, by not walking out alone at night

You may do this, many men may do it as well. But the idea that anything like the vast majority of women exist in some sort of self imposed curfew because of their terror of strange men is entirely false.

Also as I am well aware, your intention is not to provide women with knowledge about how dangerous men are in order that they can take steps to make themselves safe from them, so now you are being disingenuous.

BTW it doesn't ever have to be pointed out to women that men are a danger to them, they are taught that from the time they can first understand 'stranger danger.'

'What are women to do now that you have pointed out that men are dangerous ? Avoid them ? Perhaps we should segregate men and women until this problem can be fixed ? That would surely be best in the short term'

Yes, women do avoid men, by not walking out alone at night, but walking in groups with other women, but using segregated bathrooms and changing rooms etc. Total societal segregation would be almost impossible to achieve and when feminists float is an idea they're called man haters so clearly that's not going to work. I'm surprised you think it's for the best.

So you're saying men are a danger to women, but I'm not allowed to say it for some reason?

I don't get whats confusing you. As i've pointed out - saying "men are dangerous to women" is not useful information. What are women to do now that you have pointed out that men are dangerous ? Avoid them ? Perhaps we should segregate men and women until this problem can be fixed ? That would surely be best in the short term.

Saying "men are dangerous to other men" is equally true but no one goes around saying that. If men are incapable of treating each other in such a manner that one could state "men are not dangerous to other men" then what on earth makes you think that it is ever going to be possible to state authoritatively "men are little danger to women". The point is - that you would never be able to say that, and I think you know it.

You reckon the evidence suggests that men are inherently violent, but at exact same time you also reckon that it's offensive to say men are a danger to women?? Really??

lol shove