Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

"If you weren't so shrill/man-hating/rude/opinionated/extreme I would be your ally. But as it is, with you the way you are, I can't get on board with anything you say Maybe if you were a bit nicer?".

It's never true. Allies are allies. I think Milo Yiannopoulis is an arse but I'm still an ally for LGB rights. Richard Dawkins pisses me right off, but I'm still an ally for secularism. Focusing on how the behaviour of individuals within a movement should be different is pretty much always just a way to shut them down when you don't like what they're saying. Due to socialisation, it often works quite well on women.

So when you say you could be a feminist ally if we weren't such a bunch of manhaters, growapear, I say pants on FIRE.

Sparrow

So you want a battle of the sexes ? This is very 1970's.

I will help boys and men just as much as they help girls and women. How about that?

Coleman

Of course I don't think you hate men given what you have posted although I do note that what you posted goes along with the wider general theme in todays society of teaching the girl all the things she can do while the boy is told what he can't do. Perhaps the dynamic between the siblings motivated this, I would hope so rather than you just telling him it because he is a boy.

Sparrow

You're actually saying that we should be concerned about how much love we're displaying?? Do you realise what a dick that makes you look?

I believe someone expected it to be believed that your motivation was to help boys and men rather than bleat on about what bastards and dicks they are, but if that floats your boat and you think it will help things, knock yourself out.

growapear do you go on conservation websites trying to save rhinos and demand they should really be talking about tigers? Or go on baking websites and bemoan the lack of discussions on the topic of bicycle repair? I mean really this is feminism women's rights forum so it should come as no earth shattering shock women's issues are discussed here.

Why precisely should we discuss men's issues in a feminist forum?

That should say 'love of men' obv

Yet again I find it bizarre when you say that this forum doesn't display a 'lovely of men' as though that's an awful thing, when we're talking about men raping and murdering women. You're actually saying that we should be concerned about how much love we're displaying?? Do you realise what a dick that makes you look?

growapear This thread was started by Too because she has young sons and wanted to discuss whether sexual consent needs to be taught or whether right and wrong in this area is inherent.

She loves her sons and doesn't like the thought that they'd ever have the potential to comit this kind of crime.

Most posters replied that education on this subject is very important for both boys and girls.

Like you I have a son and a daughter. My husband and I are already teaching my DD she has a right to bodily autonomy and are already teaching my son that he does not have the right to touch her/take her things etc just because he's physically strong and therefore can.

That's not victimising our DD. It's not demonising our DS. It's just good parenting.

I also teach my children that stealing is wrong, even if you won't get caught. It doesn't mean I think they are thieves.

I also teach my children to stand up for themselves and others. To challenge bullying, sexism, racism and homophobia. To intervene when safe and get help when not.

Do you really disagree with the approach I've outlined?

Do you really think I'm a man hater who demonises boys and young men?

I didn't say i had "hurty" feelings did I ? If you think the tone of this forum is one of positivity and demonstrates a love of men and a desire to help them then you are deluded.

Xeno

It's so obvious you hate men it's comical that you try to project your hatred on to others to justify it.

'I think expecting that men will react positively to the language used on this forum and elsewhere is misguided and that this can be clearly seen everywhere you see what counts as feminist analysis given a public airing. This does not mean that "men hate women" as seems to be commonly believed.'

There it is a nutshell. If women point out a fact about men, men are going to get the hump and turn their backs on women as they are raped and murdered. But that's doesn't mean men hate women, no. Because doing nothing about women being raped and murdered means nothing at all.

But when women do something hideous and heinous like talk about men in way that gives them hurty feelings, well then that definitely means women hate men. Diddums.

I don't hate men either. I know very many fantastic men and some arseholes. I know very many fantastic women and some arseholes too. It's all quite simple.

But as an overall group of people, women are overwhelmingly more likely to be harmed by men than by women. And men are overwhelmingly more likely to be harmed by men than by women. Therefore it's not man hating to want to tackle the issue of male violence.

Ah, I see your problem.

You feel guilt and shame about your own actions but are projecting that onto us. For the record, I don't hate men. I don't even hate men as a class. You need to stop being so emotional.

You hate women though, it oozes through your every statement. I also get the impression that you're not keen on men either.

I'm sure there are lots of places on the Internet where you'll get an enthusiastic reception for your views Grow.

careless as to fail to moderate our tone.

As i have stated now umpteen times, it's a lot more than a little slip up in your wording. Anyway - the discussion has been fairly good natured I feel so I will say thank you and bye for now.

I care not either way. Just asking what I think is a reasonable question.

Oh well that's me told. I'll leave you to it then.

Ok, so women need to be careful to be nice to men if they expect them to take an interest in male violence towards women. We mustn't get cross about it, or be as careless as to fail to moderate our tone.

Grow

Given that you don't really give a fuck what you could personally do as a small step to counter a culture of male violence against women or think you should do it, what is the reason for your continuing presence on this thread? If not to be goady?

It's not helpful, grow. It's goady.

I think a reduction in male violence would be nice. I think expecting that men will react positively to the language used on this forum and elsewhere is misguided and that this can be clearly seen everywhere you see what counts as feminist analysis given a public airing. This does not mean that "men hate women" as seems to be commonly believed.

I said I cared about them both in different ways and for different reasons. I don't think it's possible or helpful to try and say which I care about most. And as I said I'd like a reduction in all male violence. Caring about one aspect doesn't mean I can't care about another aspect and take actions to address both.

Perhaps it's you who needs to re read Speak. You said you did not think you had said which one you cared more about. So i asked if you would now say which one you care more about (although i guess it is obvious).

xeno

That's just it though, i don't feel any guilt or shame about the actions of other men at all. So see me as being helpful in pointing out that what I perceive to be the thinly veiled hatred you have for men as being something that makes someone who would otherwise be an ally reluctant to engage with feminism.

Did you read the whole of that post or just the first part?

I care about them both, I don't think I've said I care more about one or the other.

Would you care to do so now ?