Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

I share girlwiththeflaxenhair's point of view to a great extent. I think the message "teach men not to rape" will never going to solve the problem by itself because it seems to suggest that rapists rape because they think it is ok to rape. It's a bit like telling serial killers not to murder, thieves (not those who are desperate to get food but those who live well but want a new mobile, etc) not to steal, etc. All those kinds of criminals know full well it is wrong what they do, but they will do it anyway, because it's their nature.
But teaching of concent is also important, because it can at least reduce the number of rapists. I remember back in school when boys used to grope me and other girls and I found it normal (not in the sense that I thought it was ok, but more that it was no big deal because it was so common.) Of course only a small fraction of boys who do that as teens will become rapists, but if groping were considered unacceptable back then, there would be a smaller chance of some becoming rapists.

in your opinion
Thanks for that useful contribution

So are men just naturally predisposed to rape and there's nothing anyone can do about it then?

I think that's what I was feeling Ophelia, that the ideas around consent have to happen earlier and more comprehensively than a consent workshop in secondary school or university.

Society conditions us to believe that women and girls should be subservient and listen to the needs of others above their own needs while male needs are accepted unquestionably.

In your opinion.

Society conditions us to believe that women and girls should be subservient and listen to the needs of others above their own needs while male needs are accepted unquestionably. Particularly wrt male sexuality as some unstoppable force that needs satisfying. Women's sexuality generally considered more "mysterious" or needs to be "brought out" from her.

Damn right the notion of consent needs to be taught to males but not just at school either, it needs to be a prevalent perception. If we are to ever counter the male-led society we live in when it comes to everything we need to start learning at an early age that men do not need to rape and that women have bodily autonomy.

I do not believe for a second a man's sex drive is innately higher than a woman's. Women can go throughout life without raping or sexually assaulting men to get their kicks. I'm sure men are capable of the same, but so far they get away with being reckless and being rapists.

Not convinced this huge societal change will take place under a workshop setting.

I think the capacity for compassion/empathy is a capacity that nearly all humans are born with, exceptions being perhaps psychopaths and sociopaths. But, if your upbringing neglects the development of your compassion/empathy then it something that can fail to properly develop. Young toddlers cannot properly empathize with others, and I think adults can be stuck at that level if they have had that aspect of their development neglected.

So I think that consent workshops are useful discussion points, but may not be able to change the behavior of people who have not got a proper understating of compassion/empathy due to their upbringing.

I always feel that if I don't teach my children about consent then they'll be educated by society at large and that seems like a bad idea.

Only now I'm older do I realise that I was brought up with a very warped view of romance and consent. Nice girls should put up a bit of resistance to sexual advances and need to be persuaded (basically saying no but meaning yes). Possessive behaviour means he loves you. If you went out with him x times you owed him sex. A rapist is a stranger in a dark alley. What you wear makes you more vulnerable to rape (and conversely if you cover up you're safe). Really damaging stuff but at least the person at risk of damage was myself.

A lot of those messages are around today. I certainly don't want my sons to imbibe and act on them.

I agree with Viking basically. posting because...

You've reminded me of this article which I found interesting. www.cracked.com/blog/how-men-are-trained-to-think-sexual-assault-no-big-deal/

It's an interesting question - i think many men who commit rape know damn fine they don't have consent, they don't care - they think they can get away with it. I don't really see how you can teach these kind of people to behave differently. I suspect that consent workshops and the idea that men need to be taught not to rape are playing into the hands of MRAs etc.

Presumably everyone needs to be taught. It's not an innate thing.

I agree with you that it's wrong to teach it explicitly only to boys. It should be explicitly taught to everyone. what is covered in school may or may not stick of course. But at least getting teens to think about it, and having a source about conduct other than Internet and mags, has to be a good thing.