Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

Op I've been pondering this recently.
The cup of tea analogy that keeps getting linked to is dreadful IMO.

" Or am i underestimating how many other crimes I ward off with my parenting without realising it?" Yes, I think this.

Yes I think these are new primitive ideas. It's part if breaking out of a patriarchal point of view.

Unfortunately there are many influences (such as online porn which is instantly available to a curious mind, or even pop culture) that prop up usual patriarchal ideas that suggest the female body is a passage to male pleasure, rather than the reverse, and that a woman is more accommodating etc.

So while your sons (and the DS of room101) are well brought up, you can't protect them entirely from the influence of peers, the surrounding pop culture, current ideologies etc.

But we have already made amazing progress when u look at anti-victim blaming campaigns and the attention that certain rape trials get now which would have been ignored normally.

I don't think a workshop by itself will achieve much, but consent does absolutely need to be taught. It's far more than just telling rapists not to rape - it's about dispelling myths and broadening understanding about what rape actually is. And it won't just be would-be rapists who receive the lessons, but would-be rape apologists and young people who will (hopefully) step up when they see boundaries being crossed, or hear their peers bragging about dodgy situations. And dispelling rape myths will help future victims understand that they're not to blame.

but I think 'teaching consent in an age appropriate way' is what other posters have mentioned, teaching empathy and respect from birth, treating children with respect and so on- I've never felt the need to teach my children 'oh, and also, very important, don't murder anyone, even if they have annoyed you and you think you can get away with it'
but I'm confident they won't murder anyone.

Tooticky Learning about consent happens from babyhood though, so it's an extension of an existing framework (ideally) when it comes to sexual consent.

Consent teaching from childhood examples:

Ask if you can borrow that toy, don't just take it
Ask if you can have another ice cream, don't just get one
That's enough playing now, X is tired of that game
Why don't you ask X if they want to play outside, maybe X doesn't want to play outside right now.

Sadly the people who really need a lesson in sexual consent are those who really need/needed a lot of other lessons in life that they didn't get along the way.

The problem of course is that if you've left teaching boys about consent until the point where you're talking about it in terms of sex, then you've left it too late. Consent is learned from babyhood, with lessons about kind hands, kind words and not being made to have physical contact with people the child chooses not to. Schools/nurseries can reinforce those lessons from day one, while teaching new ones around working cooperatively and taking care of yourself.

This is why SRE should be compulsory and taught from reception. If it's left to Yr5/6 then opportunities might be missed, especially if there are difficulties around respect/boundaries at home and because research suggests that boys are statistically likely to have been watching porn from the age of 8.

I think that understanding consent absolutely needs to be taught.

There are so many things that I didn't properly understand when I was younger.

I am not sure that I have fully internalised the things that I intellectually believe.

My ds at his current level of development is very touchy feely and will be invasive of my dd's body space. My ex-husband and I take my dd's side in this. 'No, ds, it doesn't matter that you wanted a hug from DD, she didn't want to hug you, so trying to make her hug you when she didn't want one isn't nice. It's the opposite of nice.' "Hugs are nice but only when both people want the hug.' At the moment this can make him very pouty but with the message being reinforced again and again, hopefully by the time he reaches beyond hugs, he will get that affection should be a two way process.

Absolutely Teeth.

Exactly, SpeakNoWords - as you say: "I think that if you teach your sons compassion, empathy and respect for others as you would naturally do, then it's highly unlikely they'll be rapists".

I dated a lot of guys, some far nicer than others, but NONE of them had had to have consent explicitly explained to them. It was innate in them that physical connections should be mutual.

I don't think it's an "education" thing, that's too one-dimensional. It's a social thing, it starts from babyhood with the Pleases and Thankyous and Mind your feet and Take your shoes off and Put your litter in the bin and Don't tease the cat and Say Sorry's... etc. etc.etc.......... basically teaching respect for the world around them. Picking out Consent by itself is like trying to teach the entire French language by means of parroting Bonjour and Merci. Yes technically you can speak French, even if it's just two words, but at the same time it's a drop in the ocean.

Look at the Brock Turner case where the attempted defense was all about how he really didn't think what he did was a sexual assault. And then the comments from his father, family and friends that backed up this idea that it was acceptable behaviour. I think that shows that plenty of people need to think about consent and their attitudes.

I wonder if it might be far more useful to introduce a workshop for females on how to report a sexual assault.
(And then for any actual reporting to be taken seriously.)

It's an interesting question - i think many men who commit rape know damn fine they don't have consent, they don't care - they think they can get away with it.

This is very true. Really not sure about this idea that men rape women out of a kind of ignorance.

tooticky
No I'm certainly sure your sons are not predisposed to rape, but under our current cultural climate where rape is minimised and to an extent normalised, more males are able to get away with rape and do it just because they can.

Education does not exist in schools alone. There are huge external influences to consider. BUT surely introducing a "consent module/workshop" can't do any harm at all.

Well if you brought up your sons the good old way, in a society where married women were property and basically there for sexual pleasure and the getting of children, wouldn't you think their attitude to sex would be different? Wouldn't you think their wives would be? I bet it would be quite likely that the idea that a woman might legitamately withold sex might never occur to either party - if bodily autonmony in marriage doesn't exist then where is rape?

Isn't there some sort of innate compassion that stops people, eg, committing acts of violence?

Not really. Though the manner and context in which people commit violence is socially shaped. If you think about it, we have to teach children the difference between all aspects of right and wrong. Fail to this, and chances are they'll end up a sociopath.

I did read a great book called 'Savage Girls and Wild Boys' about feral children: kids who'd been raised by dogs and wolves etc. The ones rescued after the critical period of social development and language acquisition not only lacked any empathy, but any sense of themselves as existing in an interpersonal context. That's an extreme situation, but it illustrates the point.

You have to teach children everything - even how to speak and go to the toilet. So the ethics of sexual interaction do have to be taught to them just like everything else. Moreover, these days most boys are subjected to the influence of pornography, much of which devalues the concept of consent. Countering that negative education with a positive one is important I think.

I think that if you teach your sons compassion, empathy and respect for others as you would naturally do, then it's highly unlikely they'll be rapists. I have two young sons and I don't think they have natural disposition to be rapists just like I don't think they have natural disposition to be murderers or whatever.

In 'Girl Up by the fab Laura Bates she writes "Consent is too LOW a bar, hold out for ENTHUSIASM".
I think that's a pretty good message for teenage boys.

...and even if it didn't affect the rape rate, it would lower the number of sexual assaults which is also a good thing.

I can't think of any other behaviour that can't be changed (in absolute terms) by societal norms and pressure, so why would rape be any different?