Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

I think consent absolutely needs to be taught. It won't stop the violent misogynists but it might make others think twice.

Good point. There will always be men that rape because they want to rape.
But teaching the rest,especially future generations that:
-having sex with your wife because it's your right and her duty is not ok
-that whinging and whining and sulking in order to get sex is not ok
-that "you just need to let me convince you/get you i. The mood" is not ok
-that if she's too drunk it's not ok
-that coming over means sex is not ok
-that flirting,kissing etc means sex is not ok
-that dressing a certain way or having a certain past means she'll have sex with you is not ok

..and so on,can only be a good thing.

Part of the problem is porn, which subliminally conveys the perception that women like being forced - that propagate rape as a normal sexual fantasy. That's what's dangerous, and what has to be countered by education.

Sex should be understood as an exercise mutuality, trust and emotional closeness.

Didn't say that Rebel. If you think that men can be kept entirely in check by women, and man are not required, then that would seem to suggest there is no need for feminism.

I'll admit I don't know much about feminism,but I'm sure it's not about women keeping men in check/controlling them.

Not read the full thread but there was an interesting piece of research where men admitted to rape if it was worded differently, e.g. if the word "made" "forced" etc was used.

I think consent absolutely needs to be taught. It won't stop the violent misogynists but it might make others think twice.

Having been a juror on two sexual assault trials- one child, one adult- I think anything that addresses and refutes rape myths is essential and badly overdue.

'The fact is that women do depend on men as men depend on women. In early societies women were indeed dependant on local groups of men to protect them from other men. This is still the case today, we expect rapists and murderers to be arrested and locked away and controlled, by other men. It's obvious to say "if men weren't violent none of this would matter" but some men are and always have been wishing they weren't and admonishing them for it is no basis for a society.'

This is exactly what I mean. Men use the threat of other men to control women - ie, 'men are out to get you, but stay with us, give us sex, make our dinner and raise our children and we'll protect you.'

'Didn't say that Rebel. If you think that men can be kept entirely in check by women, and man are not required, then that would seem to suggest there is no need for feminism.'

I genuinely don't understand this comment. Are you saying that men are naturally violent and need to be controlled, but if women can control them then feminism isn't needed

I've explained consent to my older children, male and female. I've also explained how sometimes two men get married, two women get married, how a persons skin colour doesn't mean anything good or bad.

This is still the case today, we expect rapists and murderers to be arrested and locked away and controlled, by other men

Do we? I expect rapists and murderers to be arrested by the police and thereafter to be processed by the judicial system.

For practical purposes men will be guarded by male prison officers.

So is there an imbalance there or are there at least an equal number of sexual acts that women would prefer that are not comfortable for men ? If not - can such an imbalance ever be entirely socially corrected?

Difficult question to answer girl, because hitherto men have predominantly called the shots, sexually. They are rarely in the subordinate position they would need to be in in order to experience acts they are not comfortable with.

I remember at school I was groped by a girl in front of the whole class. It was a deeply humiliating and perturbing experience, and I've never forgotten about it. However, it was positive experience insofar as it gave me a glimpse of what it must be like for so many women to live in a male dominated world where being the victim of a casual assault is a commonplace.

It all depends on whether you regard sexual violence as inherently phallic. If it is, then the imbalance can never be socially corrected. However, we know that it is not universally so. Women do molest children, and penetratively with the use of objects or fingers. If they are in a position of sexual power, they can abuse that power: it's just that more often than not they're not in that position. Also they're socialised to be sexually submissive.

I'm wondering how the internet will change things, because it disembodies and de-phallicises sexual abuse in lots of ways. You don't to be a big strong man to abuse online - you can not only be anyone, but pretend to be anyone.

Didn't say that Rebel. If you think that men can be kept entirely in check by women, and man are not required, then that would seem to suggest there is no need for feminism.

This is still the case today, we expect rapists and murderers to be arrested and locked away and controlled, by other men

Because there aren't any female police officers,prosecutors,judges etc?

The biggest con that the patriarchy pulled on women was to put them in position of artificial dependence on men and then convince them to be grateful that men support them.

I find this language difficult to engage with.

"The patriarchy" is a description of our culture that has evolved over millenia. No one is to blame for it, nor is it some gigantic con that has been played on unsuspecting women who all this time were just waiting for modern feminism to elucidate their plight.

The fact is that women do depend on men as men depend on women. In early societies women were indeed dependant on local groups of men to protect them from other men. This is still the case today, we expect rapists and murderers to be arrested and locked away and controlled, by other men. It's obvious to say "if men weren't violent none of this would matter" but some men are and always have been wishing they weren't and admonishing them for it is no basis for a society.

The biggest con that the patriarchy pulled on women was to put them in position of artificial dependence on men and then convince them to be grateful that men support them.

So is there an imbalance there or are there at least an equal number of sexual acts that women would prefer that are not comfortable for men ? If not - can such an imbalance ever be entirely socially corrected ?

In my eyes the imbalance comes mostly from the fact that men are more likely to take what they want whether given freely or not,while at the same time women are conditioned to think that that is expected and it's their duty to "give" it.

In my mum's words sex is something you do "after a long,hard day at work,sit on your back staring at the ceiling with your legs spread." Only after marriage of course.

I wonder if the problem is just the word - we shouldn't teach kids they need to get "consent" - we should teach them that sex should be mutually enjoyable and they should only engage in it with it someone who is equally keen to participate.

This.

The issue is not one of consent per se, but the whole attitude of the person who sees another persons' body as a thing to which they seek access.

Imagine if a stranger walked up to a woman and said: "Excuse me, is it alright if I grab your breasts? It's just that I wanted to get your consent first".

While that might be preferable to him just groping the woman, it would still be utterly insulting and humiliating to her.

There is too much focus placed on a very technical, legalistic notion of consent rather than on the character of the person committing the sexual assault and the moral context of the situation.

I remember a conversation with a guy,where he kept insisting that making love is missionary only (maybe candles and music and all that shit) and having sex is anything else "adventurous" (his example was doggy style). Even if with the same person,with whom you are in a committed relationship etc. Sex was the dirty one. It's a really fucked up way to look at things.
Another guy was massively impressed(best night of his life) by my very active participation and moans. Which brings us back to the way of thinking that a woman actively enjoying sex is out of the normal. How do you look for enthusiastic consent when it's not something you expect?
Ofc most of these mentalities,hopefully are outdated now,but it just shows how many factors affect men and women when it comes to sex and consent. Once again..ignorance is no excuse (stating that just in case).

So men are more likely want it, and women are encouraged to give it to them. The fact that in most sexual intercourse women are penetrated and men penetrate is important.

So is there an imbalance there or are there at least an equal number of sexual acts that women would prefer that are not comfortable for men ? If not - can such an imbalance ever be entirely socially corrected ?

Trills

None of the above. Personally I have no idea of the sexual dynamics between my parents, nor what either of them expected or desired of the other. Perhaps you find this unusual, but you will find that it is entirely typical.

You can feel better about the fact that women have fought and fought to change things. Without feminism women would still be entirely subject to men. Things have improved and could still improve if we keep fighting.

FWIW, while I think patriarchy gives definite material benefits to men in practice, on a personal level, it is also detrimental. There are some men, obviously, who hate women and will abuse them no matter what. But I think a lot of other men are acting on their socialisation. I've seen first hand what it's like for a man to realise how badly he's been taught by society. It's not a fun process.

And women are largely socialised not to give away sex too freely, that it's dirty etc. So any sexual act can feel degrading in the wrong circumstances, it's not just a physical act.

Because as a rule, when you strip the cultural baggage away those things are generally more pleasurable physically for the man than the woman. There is often a degrading or uncomfortable element to them. So men are more likely want it, and women are encouraged to give it to them. The fact that in most sexual intercourse women are penetrated and men penetrate is important.

I would imagine that 99.9% of boys have no idea of and utterly appalled by the idea that anything sexual happens between their parents at all actually.

Are these boys
a - rather dim?
b - living in very large houses with very thick walls?

when they are weary of trying something sexually is to have a glass of something for "courage") and so on.

I think this hits on something interesting Rebel - why do men typically have to persuade women to pressure women into things they don't want to do ? why is it not the other way around ? Is it just porn culture ? where did that come from ?

This is a thing that actually frightens me to some extent, because the narrative goes that only women with no self respect or prostitutes will allow men to do things to them that no other women would. Why do men want to do these things (they don't require listing out here I don't think). ?

Imagine a boy raised around men being "the boss". Women running around after them,being treated like a second class citizen,there only to satisfy the man's needs..be it dinner on the table or sex.

I would imagine that 99.9% of boys have no idea of and utterly appalled by the idea that anything sexual happens between their parents at all actually.

There are many factors that contribute to rape culture and the "that wasn't rape" instant position without reflection.
There will be cultural factors. Imagine a boy raised around men being "the boss". Women running around after them,being treated like a second class citizen,there only to satisfy the man's needs..be it dinner on the table or sex.
There will be social factors /conditioning . How a man acts to be a real man,boys will be boys, no means yes(I've seen women saying "oh,but i do sometimes say no in a cheeky way,when i mean yes so maybe the poor guy was just confused")buy her a drink or ten(and often advice for women when they are weary of trying something sexually is to have a glass of something for "courage") and so on.

In many of these cases said boys/men won't even consider that what they are doing is wrong,and sexual assault/rape. They never been thought. If a girl/woman does complain,their behaviour is dismissed,minimised,excused. It's no excuse ofc or a valid defence in a trial.
In the same way,many women raised in the same way have no idea they have been sexually assaulted/raped. Even if they might have a feeling something is not quite right the realisation that what happened to them was a crime always comes as a massive shock. That's why consent,body autonomy,empathy,respect etc is essential to be taught for both sexes and taught early.

Then there are the ones that know it's wrong but simply don't care,or worse enjoy it. The power, breaking a person,owning them,hurting them etc.