Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

but I think that "men has to know when woman wants to be kissed, but is never allowed to just ask" is not a healthy attitude either.

This. I've seen more than a few times women complain how much of a turn off a man asking "can i kiss you","is this ok" etc. is. I don't get it. Worst case,it might ruin the "movie-like" moment,but how is someone respecting your feelings and boundaries a turn off?

Way tmi but i cry when i orgasm,and it starts as I'm getting close. Even after 8 years of knowing this, OH will still ask if I'm ok and if he should keep going. Because he gives a shit and doesn't just assume.

And if we try to teach our sons about consent, are those who have ignored a lack of consent simply those who weren't adequately educated?
Is it depressing to think there are a huge group of boys/men for whom its an educational issue? Or is that a very negative way to think?

To me, teaching "consent" is simply a means of making it easier to tell decent men apart from rapists.

If you expect men to act on nonverbal cues, and, for example, kiss you when you feel like it, you will never be able to tell whether a man who kissed you against your will was just clueless - or meant to assault you.
(Though it is likely the latter; people who are bad at reading body language know that and don't want to offend)

If, on the other hand, we had a system where all men who do have empathy ask, or wait for a verbal invitation, there would be no more excusing sexual violence as "a misunderstanding" or the like.

There are problems with the consent vocabulary, and teaching consent sometimes seem to result in rapists being able to more eloquently pretend to not be rapists, but I think that "men has to know when woman wants to be kissed, but is never allowed to just ask" is not a healthy attitude either.

Sorry late to the party, but I wonder how many adults needs to educated about consent. When I was 12 my best friend's mum was my teacher. I spent a fair bit of time at their house and bf's brother used to corner me & sexually assault me. One day when I went there he told me he had bought some condoms; I did not know what to do & had always just frozen in horror when he'd assaulted me before. I asked my friend to tell her mum (my teacher) she came back in & I asked what her mum said & she told me she'd said "well, you can't stop young people having sex." When the boy cornered me next I just ran out of the house and he did finally get the message & get a new "girlfriend" - To get to the point; it wasn't until I heard the exact same phrase reportedly used by social workers & teachers in the Rotherham and Oxford sexual abuse cases that I realised the extent to which my teacher/his mother had let me down.

I now have a teenage DS and I started from about the age of 11 to talk to him about sex and the importance of making sure your partner wants to have sex too by talking to them about it. He was obviously quite embarrassed whenever I raised the subject, but as he's got older he is quite open about what stage a relationship is at and talking about any worries. He's never possessive or dismissive or critical and he seems really empathic and sensible and I'm amazed really, I didn't know teenage relationships could be like that.

growapear if women do now earn slightly more during their 20s, the available information shows that men will still out earn them by a much larger amount in the subsequent age bracket. So that should cheer you up.

And this thread started on the subject of consent - teaching my son about consent, doesn't make the world in any way worse for my son

True - i did change the subject there.

btw some dyke - your link is from 2013, here's one from 2015 www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds which apparently says the opposite.

But you're right this is nothing to do with consent, just the narrative that boys have it easy in comparison to girls and the consequences of telling them that against a backdrop where there is strong evidence young women are doing better than them.

is it ? citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.611.9323&rep=rep1&type=pdf

"and will actually be probably paid less than women once they graduate"

The converse is true at the moment. University of Warwick research reported here:

www.theguardian.com/careers/careers-blog/graduate-gender-pay-gap-university-subject

Despite women having better entry qualifications than men, women still earn less upon graduation.

So, get back to us when this changes. Interesting though how we are supposed to worry about what poor ole failing chaps are going to do, not just before it happens, but whilst women are still being underpaid for their skills and achievements! How much higher do we still have to jump to get equal outcomes?...................

growapear there is nothing in my post that would indicate that I think girls are better than boys, in any way.

You seem, by your posts, to imply that improving the world for women necessarily makes the world worse for men? Why is it you think that?

Why do you think boys are doing worse in school?

And this thread started on the subject of consent - teaching my son about consent, doesn't make the world in any way worse for my son.

It isn't white middle class boys that perform poorly, statistically. It's white working class boys.

And I assume from your post that you think girls are just better academically than boys ?

Coleman

Strange that when young women appear to being doing significantly better than young men it's all about individuals all of a sudden.

growapear my son is ultimately responsible for his own destiny.

He won't do less well than his female peers unless he doesn't study and messes about in class.

He won't have less chance of getting into university if he has produced the required results, built an interesting CV and gives a mature and thoughtful interview.

He won't earn less if he works hard at work and impresses his employers.

My DH works in a very male dominated industry. He actively supports the women's forum at his firm and actively mentors young female graduates because he finds it appalling that in 2017 Senior female Executives are still very rare in his industry. He celebrates when a young woman flies up the ranks - he sees it as a positive sign. He is in no way threatened by it. That's because he's very good at his job.

His colleague who is a bit rubbish is deeply offended by high achieving, hard working women.

Treacle

I absolutely agree that telling girls they should watch how they dress and not be assertive is entirely wrong and I would strongly criticise anyone who said they should.

Coleman

The trouble with your privilege theory is that when young men grow up and discover that actually they can expect to do less well academically than their female peers, and the have less chance of going to uni than them, and will actually be probably paid less than women once they graduate (as things stand) - and you tell them that the women who are all actually ahead of them anyway - not only did much better than they did, but that they got there despite all the advantages those guys apparently have over them. Doesn't that strike you as odd ?

Privilege theory holds than men and women actually are not peers, because any woman your son encounters at uni should he go there, or in his professional career supposing he has one - actually had to work much harder than he did - go figure !

By which I mean, women have had been made to modify their behaviour since forever. But the idea that men could perhaps modify their behaviour is somehow very offensive.

The general narrative that boys are privileged and have it easy and need to control their behaviour and girls need to be encouraged and nurtured to achieve their potential is harmful I think.

Do you think it equally harmful when girls are told from a young age that they have to modify their behaviour? Eg not be assertive because no one likes a girl who is bossy. Not dress in a particular way because it's distracting for boys. Not walk alone because if she comes to harm it will be her own fault for not taking sensible precautions?

growapear

My DS does have societal and cultural privileges that my DD doesn't have.

However my DD as an educated, middle class white woman also has been born into privilege.

I don't believe that it's harmful to make either of them aware of that. Or to teach them that they can use their privilege to speak out for those that don't have the same advantages.

Privilege doesn't mean "you have it easy" but it does mean you might have less roadblocks thrown in your way.

I teach both my children to control their behaviour. I set high standards.

I encourage and nurture both my children to reach their highest potential to find their talents and build on them.

It's not one or the other you know. I can encourage both simultaneously.

As for educational attainment, as it happens he's ahead of her at the moment. I tell them that we all have different gifts and that hard work and a good attitude helps us attain our goals.

You can be as rude to me as you like Growapear, I'm not going to lose my temper.

Feminism is about making society equal for women, it's not about bringing men down.

Well seeing as growapear is ignoring me now I'll ignore him. I'd like to expand on an earlier point I made re: empathy. Reading novels increases and develops empathy so I would like to see children's books and stories where girl protagonists occupy leadership and protagonist positions and the stories are broad enough in appeal that little boys read them as avidly as little girls read Harry Potter.

To that end I have a project with a fantastical premise only the hook is hyperscience/engineering rather than magic. I was going to make the protagonist a little girl anyway, but I'm going to bump this up my list of projects to work on. I just need to land on a decision over theme/setting and I'll be away.

I have a daughter. She's still quite young,but that doesn't stop me from telling her that when someone tells you to stop you stop. And that sometimes people don't want kisses and hugs and that's ok and most importantly you don't MAKE THEM. She went through a phase at abt 3 where she'd put boys and girls(so they couldn't escape) in a headlock to kiss them. I also tell her to be gentle,or not take advantage of her strength when playing with younger kids. Just because she can,doesn't mean she should.While learning about respecting others,it also teaches her that other should respect her.

lol, there are no depths to which you will not sink eh sparrow.

Coleman

obstreperous - well that's boys for you eh ? :)

On the one hand you are making out as though you wouldn't parent a boy any differently to a girl in teaching the basics of polite interaction, but on the other you are saying that he needs to be taught to understand that he has a whole set of privileges your daughter does not. Would you tell an older female sibling who had the means to physically overpower the younger one exactly the same thing ? Its very likely your daughter will perform better academically than he will, but I assume you wont go telling either of them this ?

The general narrative that boys are privileged and have it easy and need to control their behaviour and girls need to be encouraged and nurtured to achieve their potential is harmful I think. But if you believe the same thing then that's great.

'So you want a battle of the sexes ? This is very 1970's.'

You're like a walking cliche. It would be funny except that I know you have a daughter. Poor girl.

growapear I've attempted to try and address you politely and to try to answer your questions helpfully but your responses, particularly the last one, do seem to be deliberately obstreperous.

I genuinely don't understand why you are approaching this discussion in this way - what do you hope to gain from it?

Come on, you know fine well that I didn't address my child in that way. I didn't even say it was because he was a boy. I simply said "it's not acceptable to keep tickling your sister when she says stop just because she can't make stop.

I said "don't grab your sister's food/toy/controller - it's unacceptable. Ask permission first and if she says "no" then it's a "no".

And he is under no pressure because he's a "white male dude". that's rather the point he is expected to behave well and work hard (just as my DD is) because those are the standards set within our family.

Funny Pooch because I do love Caitlin Moran, maybe it's just that you guys lack her eloquence, or maybe it's that you're not really that much like her. I dunno.

Coleman

He has every advantage in the world

No pressure then dude.

I'm teaching him that because he is, although younger, taller and considerably stronger than her

But he did actually touch her/attempt to take her stuff against her will right ? it sounds like you just sat him down and said "OK buster, you're a white privileged dude, and you have no right to touch your sister if she doesn't want you to".

growapear I'm teaching him that because he is, although younger, taller and considerably stronger than her.

Parenting is targeted to the needs of the child, she gets other lessons.

My DS is a tall, good looking, highly intelligent, athletic, naturally charming, white middle class male. He has every advantage in the world. It's our job as parents to help him make the most of those advantages to help him grow into a fine man.

Part of being a fine man is understanding the perspectives of those without those advantages and gifts.

So just as I would teach him not to take advantage of someone who is poor and uneducated, I'll teach him not to take advantage of someone who is physically powerless against him. Whether or not they happen to be male or female.