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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What counts as radical in the context of politics, not just feminism?

85 replies

DeviTheGaelet · 11/01/2017 14:39

This morning I heard Jeremy Corbyn's plan to introduce legislation to ensure bosses pay was capped at x20 the lowest paid in the company described as "radical".
A few days ago on a thread about what do radical feminists want to achieve I said i thought that use it or lose it paternity leave legislation would be a radical change to improve equality of the semester. But got told this isn't radical because it's using legislation to enforce a change.
Now I'm confused about what radical change actually is? Did the reporter use radical as a word for "a big change" rather than as a change targeting the root of pay inequality?
Can radical change be enacted through existing legal frameworks? Or by definition does this mean it isn't radical?
I'm confused Confused
I would really appreciate it if we didn't derail into "rad fems are mean" please!

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qwerty232 · 13/01/2017 18:49

I'm sure you are awesome Beachcomber :)

qwerty232 · 13/01/2017 18:48

Debates that affect their lives and which they feel strongly about as they have lived experience of being women and facing the problems most of us face. You do not therefore you are wading into something you don't understand. It's very arrogant.

Well, they do concern me, because I am a gendered person in a patriarchal culture too. I haven't waded into any debates directly concerning women's experience of oppression, incidentally. I wouldn't do that - and if I have done so obliviously, then please let me know. That would be wrong.

The only ones I've really have had anything to do with are those concerning how gender is assigned and constructed in our society - not just the female gender but the male too, and how that creates quandaries. That really interests me.

I've got no intention of getting up anyone's nose, or traducing feminism per se. There are lots of feminist causes I support - particularly those surrounding the sex industry, which I think is wholly iniquitous, and doing huge damage to women and our sexual culture more widely. If women are discussing their negative experiences of such things, then that's totally none of my business as a man.

However, I do have issues with some of the theory underpinning third wave feminism. I find it to be (sometimes - mega emphasis) incoherent, closed minded, and complicit in reinforcing the very divisions it critiques. It seems that some (mega emphasis) feminists are caught between two contradictory positions. On the one hand they can't let go of an idea of femininity, or famine difference, connoting women to be nobler and more caring than men. People have even suggested on here that a matriarchy would be a more morally advanced society than a patriarchy. Yet at the same time they trounce these tropes as essentialist and patriarchal. And all of these contradictory positions are often couched within an oppressor/oppressed dialectic that fails to accommodate the fact that power is dynamic - not statically binary. In particular, some (mega emphasis) third wave feminists have a habit of failing to integrate social class (or indeed structural economics as a whole) into their analysis, instead focusing disproportionately on issues of language and identity.

I don't know - I think there are HUGE tensions between men and women at the moment, and it only seems to be getting worse. And the way some of the debates around gender are framed is not often very constructive - or conducive to a more wide-ranging, nuanced and inclusive discussion.

I get the whole female spaces thing, but if we are to move beyond a gendered culture that is creating enormous misery for both men and women, then that debate will have to involve men at some level. After all, ion men are part of the problem then they cannot be unconditionally excluded from the debate that aims at a solution. Of course that doesn't mean anyone should have any place weighing into debates around serious issues which only concern women, or that any form of misogynist abuse should be tolerated. Obviously.

Beachcomber · 13/01/2017 18:47

I was referring to myself when I said "awesome".

I specified in my post that I was.

It's a feminist thing Smile

DeviTheGaelet · 13/01/2017 17:12

You aren't debating. You've waded onto a thread to get all offended because a poster said women are awesome. It'seems the ultimate in "what about the men?"
Thanks for derailing the thread.

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HelenDenver · 13/01/2017 16:37

I said "debate club"

Take the tone of the place. Are there other forums you frequent? Are they like this place, in tone, or more devil's advocate, less personal experience?

I may be wasting my pixels, but if you genuinely want to engage on here, you might think about what I've said.

venusinscorpio · 13/01/2017 16:15

Debates that affect their lives and which they feel strongly about as they have lived experience of being women and facing the problems most of us face. You do not therefore you are wading into something you don't understand. It's very arrogant.

Plus Beachcomber did not say "all women are awesome". At all.

qwerty232 · 13/01/2017 16:00

Well, I've seen people having debates on here. Lots.

HelenDenver · 13/01/2017 15:55

"That might sound like arrogance, but it's more of a compulsion. I can't stop questioning, challenging and disputing"

Having read a number of threads on here before you started posting, do you think the tone of this board is "debate club", as you describe?

qwerty232 · 13/01/2017 15:50

*asking 'Why?' all the time

qwerty232 · 13/01/2017 15:50

I could ask you the same question.

I don't know...I like debating with people, and questioning things. I have spent my whole life reading and studying and trying to understand the world, and everything seems very questionable to me. I was one of those really annoying kids who kept answering 'Why?' all the time. Furthermore, I grew up in Northern Ireland, which left with a deep suspicion of all political ideologies.

I'm really interested in what other people think - but a lot of what they think seems to me contain all sorts of logical contradictions - whether they're socialists, conservatives, anarchists, feminists, anti-feminists...whatever. That might sound like arrogance, but it's more of a compulsion. I can't stop questioning, challenging and disputing.

HelenDenver · 13/01/2017 15:40

What are you getting out of this, qwerty?

qwerty232 · 13/01/2017 15:40

So you're in need of an ego rub right now.

No. I am in no need of that.

Indeed, my point is that there is no reason why men are awesome. And there is no reason why women are awesome.

It's just the case that some people are awesome.

0phelia · 13/01/2017 15:34

Lol. So a reason why are men awesome...

So you're in need of an ego rub right now. It's ok just believe me men can be and often are awesome. (Apart from always expecting their ego etc to be stroked by women).

qwerty232 · 13/01/2017 15:32

My point is really is that women are not awesome in comparison to men, and men are not awesome in comparison to women.

Of all the male and female individuals I have met, their gender has had no bearing on their awesomeness or non-awesomeness. Just men who are despicable, just ok and really very awesome; and women who are despicable, just ok and really very awesome.

qwerty232 · 13/01/2017 15:16

Women awesome because we contain the miracle ability to give birth and breastfeed. And not lose our hair after turning 35 or whatever.

And a reason why men are awesome?

qwerty232 · 13/01/2017 15:16

qwerty this may come as a shock but not everything is about men.

That's exactly my point.

DeviTheGaelet · 13/01/2017 15:01

0phelia thank you for an amazing post. Flowers. You are much more patient than I am.
qwerty this may come as a shock but not everything is about men.

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0phelia · 13/01/2017 14:53

Sorry beachcomber. I'm not deliberately speaking for you.

0phelia · 13/01/2017 14:52

Querty

You have assumed women being awesome means men cannot be awesome. Why can't both be awesome?

Women awesome because we contain the miracle ability to give birth and breastfeed. And not lose our hair after turning 35 or whatever.

These factors are negated by a patriarchy that devalues the innate reality of womanhood.
Surely it's fine to retrieve the reality of womanhood from the clutches of patriarchy and describe it as awesome.

Women are awesome. Men are awesome. It is men who decided women are "other" and less than awesome.

SomeDyke · 13/01/2017 14:45

Here:
www.micheleleigh.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Wittig.pdf
is an essay by Monique Wittig that explains what she meant.

venusinscorpio · 13/01/2017 14:37

Now I really think you're not posting in good faith. It's perfectly clear to me what Beachcomber meant. Are you really that spectacularly obtuse? She was talking about herself being a woman and she's allowed to use any word she feels like to describe her own condition.

qwerty232 · 13/01/2017 13:52

Beachcomber why would being an adult human female necessarily be 'awesome'? Are you not reinforcing a gender divide my making such generalised value judgements?

Surely in a post-patriarchal society gender as a value-laden dichotomy would mean nothing. It would not even exist. People would just be people who happen to be of a different biological sexes.

SomeDyke · 13/01/2017 10:42

I don't think she meant woman as 'gender role' in the simplistic way it is used nowadays. Man and woman as two ends of the 'gender spectrum', or even umpteen divisions in between still keep us stuck on that 1-d line with it being anchored at the man as default human end and woman only being defined as other. Gender being the system that keeps women nailed to that line. And then the same dichotomy repeated even amongst gay men, with active/passive sexual preferences etc.
And unfortunately, lesbians who don't do feminine, what do we have? Get 'understood' as closet trans, trying to nail us back down onto the same sick gender spectrum.

Beachcomber · 12/01/2017 23:27

Feminist fist bump! Smile

DeviTheGaelet · 12/01/2017 23:12

Yes, that's exactly what I meant!

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