British 'man' becomes pregnant

Helen, you clearly know more about the science of this than anyone else on here. My understanding of neurophysiology is pretty basic.

To sum it up, to your knowledge is there evidence to support the existence of a gendered brain independent of environmental influence?

But then no...because although genitals and brains are both biological, I presume a transperson would make a categorical distinction between the brain and other parts of the body in terms of the degree to which they determine their trans status. They would maintain that they have a female/male brain in a female/male anatomical structure. I assume.

Not saying I go along with that distinction necessarily - just conjecturing that that is how a transperson would put it.

"brain changes in response to environmental influences."

Those changes are rather subtle in comparison to what we are discussing here. No environment will change a human brain into a rodent one, or a male brain into a female one.

FYI, what I mean by male brain here is one whose cells are XY.

I think there is a scientific argument that the "template" for the human body is female (men have nipples because there's no evolutionary disadvantage, the internal clitoral structure and the external penile structure have similarities etc) but at no point is the zygote female if it was XY!

Oestrogen in the water is supposed to be "feminising" men (fat distribution patterns etc) but that is a lifelong effect, IIRC.

Thanks helen and one

I was fairly sure it was bollocks

Yes, that's what is being discussed. That the reporting of this person's situation is unhelpful and sensationalist, by having the headline "first British man to be pregnant". It's not true, and takes advantage of the person being interviewed for click bait. The story is simply "trans man is pregnant", which is a lot less sensational.

Beach's point, qwerty, was that IF genitals and/or chromosomes can be considered irrelevant in a trans person's identification, and not to do so is transphobic, THEN brain chemistry or structure differences are equally irrelevant.

Oh I see what she means. Sorry.

HH, the thread started off as about the headline!

To say now men can get pregnant is a stupid statement to make. As that's not biologically true is it.

Has any of you met any transpeople in your life?????

My dad who is a trans woman had me and my brother with my mum. What is the big deal. Trans man decides to have baby that's his choice. Know matter what clothes he wears or hairstyle he has underneath all that is a woman who can babies. Why shouldn't he exercise that right.

At most at eight weeks the embryo has not developed any external markers of sex however the sex of the cells is fixed at that point.

Yes, that's exactly it HelenDenver. Thought it was quite clear!

Thanks for your post.

I don't mean that brains and genitals are literally the same or function the same way.

I mean that they would logically be considered, in trans ideology, to have the same value or lack of with regard to the legitimacy of a person's gender identity.

(Ignoring intersex, which in some conditions has a third chromosome, I believe)

"At eight weeks all the embryos are female"

This is incorrect. The sperm that meets the egg is sexed: it provides either an X or a Y chromosome. The zygote is male or female from the get go.

Grr! Aargh!

Beach's point, qwerty, was that IF genitals and/or chromosomes can be considered irrelevant in a trans person's identification, and not to do so is transphobic, THEN brain chemistry or structure differences are equally irrelevant.

Thanks Helen and ophelia

I domt believe it myself but i saw a facebook comment by a friend who has stated as absolute fact that

...At eight weeks all the embryos are female and trans people are created at that point when the hormones are 'added' to a lesser or greater extent. Trans people are born in the wrong body and sometimes it can take a long time to realise that they are trapped in the wrong body...

I have no intentions of arguing with them as i believe someone close to them is struggling with the issue, but want to be sure of my facts (that nothing has been proved and at the moment all we have is theory) before it comes up in conversation with freinds or family

Good point, beach. Fine logic.

Sorry I italicised the wrong bit there!

So surely detectable physical brain differences are just the same as genitals

Not really, because the brain changes in response to environmental influences.

Hoist by their own petard, Beachcomber?

So surely detectable physical brain differences are just the same as genitals

Not really, because the brain changes in response to environmental influences.

Surely if you take trans ideology to its logical conclusion, the search for girl / boy brains is transphobic.

The brain is part of the body, it physically exits just as genitals exist. No TRA would say that a man is not a woman because he has a penis, he has a gender identity which overrides everything else. So surely detectable physical brain differences are just the same as genitals. If I, as feminist, denied a transperson's gender identity because they were shown not to have a brain that supposedly goes with their gender feelz I would be being transphobic, non?

I was under the impression that gender identity was entirely about how a person feels about themselves and that no-one, ever, can question those feelings. Trans ideology would be massively contradictory if detectable brain biology was a requirement for gender identity to be considered legitimate. And if it is possible to be trans without the brain biology then the brain is irrelevant and proves nothing.

Yes exactly. Very worrying. Shon is hardly one to give a balanced view, going by their newsnight performance

Also, working with a self-selecting group of children who want to talk about the possibility they are 'trans', and who are receptive to Shon's ideology on the matter.

Shon Faye apparently does work with trans children? Presumably making sure the false suicide stats are hammered home to the parents. Ffs.