British 'man' becomes pregnant

That's a very pessimistic view, qwerty.

As an example, the difference in rates and severity of street harassment towards women in different countries shows that culture, standards of behaviour in society, what is deemed acceptable or not, have a huge impact. As societies we can improve, and while criminals, sociopaths etc will continue to behave badly we can at least reduce the amount of poor behaviour by "normal" people.

No Beachcomber - I'm just saying that men oppress women principally because they have had (so far) the power to do so. I'm NOT saying that's the natural order. Or it will always be so. It isn't inevitable - but a man's physical strength is a large factor in the development of patriarchy. And it probably always going to be a very unfortunate factor TO SOME EXTENT. There will always be rape - just as there will be always be murder and genocide. Unless you think a society without ANY sexual violence is possible - which is Panglossian in the extreme.

If one group of people has a material or physical advantage over another group of people then some of them will abuse that power. This is just an unfortunate fact of human nature.

It doesn't have to be men. It can be rich, powerful, white women subjugating poor, black women. Or female prison warders. Or men subjugating poorer men. Or any permutation you like.

Human beings are capable of extraordinary nobility and empathy, but human nature is also partly really not very nice at all. All we can do is raise boys not to rape or abuse, just as we raise children not to commit arson or mug old ladies. And we punish those who do these things. And we do everything we can to minimise those things. Everything. But there will always be a certain number of arsonists, rapists and muggers in the world. And if what we understand as patriarchy does end (which it probably will over the centuries) then we will be faced of new forms of oppression. If women do gain equal power to men in politics and business then presumably they will then be doing half all the bad shit that the men do as well as half all the good shit. And there could be entirely new classes of victims.

Do you see my point?

Well either that or all the relevant laws in countries where they are based on sex rather than the actual thing need to be rewritten NOW.

Unfortunately that won't happen and this will come out slowly as lawyers start to see this "loophole".

In the UK pregnancy itself is a protected characteristic for example so that is fine.

I wouldn't want a person like the one in the article denied pregnancy related time off / care etc because they say they are a man, so it cuts both ways.

There are potentially far-reaching consequences of tampering with language and no longer having a word for "person who when they're born everyone says "it's a girl"" is a massive problem and will get worse.

I said this on MN about 4 years ago I think it was and someone stoutly asserted that having no word for people with vaginas would in no way impact or affect things like charities that help women or girls when that means people with vaginas. They were wrong though wren't they.

So the biggest problem with this as far as I am concerned is that a lot of protections are written as being sex based. If it is the case that both men and women can become pregnant then it can be argued that discriminating against a pregnant woman is not illegal sex discrimination as men can become pregnant too. There are large impacts of this around the world where laws refer to protecting women rather than eg pregnancy itself.

Example if the US a few years back where a BF mother brought a sex discrimination case. The case was not found in her favour and one of the comments (note not going towards the judgement but still noted) was that as men can BF too, it is impossible for this to be sex discrimination.

"It just so happens that hitherto most of the power has been possessed by men.

It just so happens?!

Are you being serious??

It just so happens that men oppress girls and women does it?

Things like the global oppression of one sex by the other don't "just happen". Or are you suggesting that patriarchy is the natural order?

I'll get excited when a man actually squeezes a baby through his dick.

That article is Orwellian. It is actually written in Newspeak.

Floggingmolly

I don't think the female sex is a 'homogenous mass'. In fact, women and men have always struck me as having much more in common than not. There are systems of oppression, sure - but Imo this is largely the result of men (or some of them) behaving oppressively and violently simply because they can. Just like some politicians will always carpet bomb cities if they have the power to do so. Presumably, if tomorrow women were endowed with greater upper body strength and penetrative appendages then a significant minority of them would be going around committing acts of sexual violence. Because they're human beings. And some human beings (both men and women) are sociopathic shit fuckers who will abuse any power they're given. It just so happens that hitherto most of the power has been possessed by men.

So in that sense - anatomy is, in part, destiny. Or all sorts of physical conditions and material advantages allow one group of people to subjugate another. That doesn't mean we can't change things or do everything we can to minimise such abuses of power; but it does mean recognising that a world in which gender no longer matters probably is not possible.

So in a sense I'm agreeing with you - I think. :)

No, I don't think maleness and masculinity are the same thing. I just struggle with the concept that a "non masculine" man (for want of a better term) should consider himself a woman.
I have no idea how it feels to "be a woman", really. I just know how I personally feel, and don't imagine for a moment that my experience matches up to that of every other female on the planet...
I can't grasp how feeling uncomfortable in your own skin indicates that you'd be happy claiming to be something else entirely?
And to imagine that you can actually visualise how the other sex "feels", as if we were just one huge homogeneous mass?

This whole debate rest on where the line is drawn between maleness and masculinity (or femaleness and femininity) is drawn. If the former is purely a biological designation (like having blue eyes or being 5'8) and in no way influences how people think of themselves as gendered identities - then that's no problem.

You're being perfectly clear, slithy. It's a rum 'un, and no mistake 🙂 (Attention seeking bollocks, actually, but I have been will be deleted for saying that)

Hear hear.

It's a load of bloody nonsense.

Floggingmolly I meant man carries connotations of masculinity. Your point is, unless I'm mistaken, that maleness and masculinity are not the same thing. I agree. But I don't think they can be easily separated.

If being pregnant denotes the state of being biologically female (which of course it does) then it's hard to ensure it does not inform constructions of femininity (or female identity).

It's quite hard to say 'I'm exactly the same as a man in terms of my identity and the small fact that I give birth has of course has no influence on the formation of that identity'.

Newspaper looking for a story. This is a woman and is someone who will always be a woman genetically.

Thanks though

Aargh! Not that last post

slithytove totally agree with your last post.

Surely the corrective of gender construction is gender deconstruction?

Yes. Gender deconstruction does not involve reinforcing gender norms.

A woman can call herself Bob and take testosterone to boost her masculinity, wear a tie wear a cap, and do whatever the hell she wants. She's not a man.

A man can wear makeup, get a boob job and chop his cock off if he wants. Fine. It'll never make him a woman.

I agree to deconstruct gender people as individuals need to be free from the constraints put upon them on the basis of their sex. This is what feminists have been trying to say for eons.

The trans movement goes against all of this and tries to claim if you adhere rigidly to the gendered assumptions made about the opposite sex than you really are the opposite sex which is not true.