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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

British 'man' becomes pregnant

511 replies

slithytove · 08/01/2017 10:50

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/first-british-man-reveal-hes-9582789

Sorry, it's a mirror link

I don't usually post about this stuff, but it's really annoyed me this time.

Now 'men' can get pregnant? So 'men' will need maternity leave, 'men' will need maternity services, probably somehow different to women's.

Is it just me or does the fact they are calling this person a man instead of a transman, allow men (people born as men) to take even more from women under the trans rights umbrella?

Who would it hurt to call this pregnant person a transman?

I guess we should be grateful this person was born as a woman and is therefore socialised to not put themselves first.

OP posts:
nooka · 08/01/2017 22:30

I read that as an innate difference too, sorry Beachcomber I find the argument that all women value life/children (because they are the ones who bear children) more than more all men very problematic. To me it leads to ideas that of course women should do all childcaring etc, men are from Mars women are from Venus etc.

I don't believe that I value the life of my children more than their father. Sure I had to go through pregnancy and childbirth but parenting is about so very much more than the biological beginning. Perhaps I say this just because I'm not personally very maternal, but to me feminism is important partly because it fights against those stereotypes and says at least on a personality front we are all people first. Our sex affects our material reality when it comes to biological function and then the world adds a whole other dimension of gender based rules but I really fight against the idea that it fundamentally defines who we are.

And no men cannot get pregnant.

qwerty232 · 08/01/2017 22:04

Beachcomber if I have misrepresented what you said I apologise.

Beachcomber · 08/01/2017 22:02

But Becacomber said men and women are NOT different but have a different value.

No I didn't.

What I said is absolutely not that. What I said is very straightforward and very basic feminism. You may not understand what I said, you may not have bothered to read it properly - either way that has not stopped you from speaking for me and misrepresenting what I say. Several times.

Out of your depth/not listening to what women say/not actually discussing in good faith/treating women's rights as a sixth form debating club ego exercise. Whatever it is, I don't want you to post "Beachcomber says..." again on this thread.

notsmelliesagain · 08/01/2017 21:55

Reproductive organs = you're a woman.
Youre a woman = you can get pregant.

Headlines:

Woman (who thinks she's a man) gets pregnant.

notsmelliesagain · 08/01/2017 21:53

For god sake peopel. Lets get real for a moment.
This is a w o m a n.
A woman, with the reproductve organs of a woman is 'shock' 'horror' PREGNANT.

It's a woman who thinks she's a man, (as in I think I'm a duck therefore I am a duck) is preganant.

Nothing to see here.
Move along.

A woman is pregnant.
Non-newsworthy item.

qwerty232 · 08/01/2017 21:51

In other words, a system DICTATES that women have a higher valuation of human life because they are designated a reproductive class. It is enforced. They are not born so.

qwerty232 · 08/01/2017 21:48

Hi Beachcomber. I agree with much of your post. However, I'm not sure that giving birth means women have more of an INBUILT capacity to value human life. Why would it? Unless there is such a thing as a maternal instinct - but that would be an essentialist bio-psychological quality would it not?

You do understand that men=superior and women=inferior is a value judgement? You do understand that carrying and birthing a baby is not only an exclusively female experience but also something that mothers actually live and go through? Women risk their health (both physical and mental), their lives, their independence, their safety, their bodily autonomy, themselves when they create life. It is actually quite a big deal and takes up a lot of time and energy. When you have invested that much in something, believe me, you value it - and you have a handle on the understanding that all children have that value.

You might as a woman have more of a handle- but that is that an INNATE instinct? Or is it a quality that is more common in women because they are more often than not tasked with raising children and have to demonstrate those qualities out of sheer social necessity? Just like men have traditionally demonstrated practical qualities because if they didn't roads and bridges wouldn't get built. But of course women are not innately any less practical than men. That just hasn't been their job - or something they've been allowed to do - for much of history. Similarly men are not born with less of a nurturing capacity than women; they're just born into a society in which less nurturing is expected of them. That could change.

If that was a universal female instinct then no women would mistreat or abuse their children would they? And as we know, lots of them do. All the time.

Beachcomber · 08/01/2017 21:39

I agree slithylove. Beachcomber suggested otherwise

No I did not.

Stop misrepresenting what I say.

If you don't understand what I am saying I suggest you ask for clarification rather than putting your own spin of misunderstanding all over the thread. You do not talk for me and it would appear that what I am saying is going over your head.

Beachcomber · 08/01/2017 21:34

Qwerty, don't tell me what I mean or what I am saying please.

No, I did not mean "in other words" that women are more nurturing, compassionate, passive, etc.

I meant what I said. Which is that IMO women have a better understanding of the value of all human life because we do the work that goes into creating that life.

I think my post is perfectly clear and comprehensible. As is my comment on the myth of patriarchy not being that women are men are different but that they are of different value. You do understand that men=superior and women=inferior is a value judgement? You do understand that carrying and birthing a baby is not only an exclusively female experience but also something that mothers actually live and go through? Women risk their health (both physical and mental), their lives, their independence, their safety, their bodily autonomy, themselves when they create life. It is actually quite a big deal and takes up a lot of time and energy. When you have invested that much in something, believe me, you value it - and you have a handle on the understanding that all children have that value.

And there is nothing essentialist or patriarchal on my part in my observation/analysis that girls and women are oppressed as a consequence of our reproductive capacity. I will spell it out for you - what I mean is that men oppress girls and women in order to control our reproductive systems, our ability to create life.

Essentialism is used as a justification for that oppression, to cloak that oppression in smoke and mirrors of women being weak, dirty, lesser, inferior, other, less human and less worthy and in order to peddle the different value myth.

These are perfectly straightforward ideas.

qwerty232 · 08/01/2017 21:31

I agree slithylove. Beachcomber suggested otherwise.

slithytove · 08/01/2017 21:28

Women and men are different. Genetically and physically.

That difference should end there. It should have no bearing on value.

Sadly, it does.

OP posts:
qwerty232 · 08/01/2017 21:27

Yes I know there is a difference between 'different' and something/someone having a 'different' specific property. Someone BEING different can indeed mean different in in any way while them having HAVING a different property is a specification of how they are different.

But Becacomber said men and women are NOT different but have a different value. That is a contradiction. If they have a 'different value' then they are different. It is their different value that makes them...different.

You wouldn't say of two cups that they have different colours but are not different. That would not make sense.

slithytove · 08/01/2017 21:27

Otherwise known as a woman who identifies as a man.

Still dont get the identity thing though. Surely it can only be body dysmorphia I.e. They hate their breasts and genitals and feel the physical lack of a penis.

OP posts:
slithytove · 08/01/2017 21:26

This person isn't a man, they are a transman.

OP posts:
slithytove · 08/01/2017 21:24

twogoats it pisses me off even more when I read that gender reassignment costs £29k, when I don't believe it's needed in the majority of cases! Certainly not where someone is happy to use their body to its full biological possibilities.

OP posts:
conserveisposhforjam · 08/01/2017 21:16

**Different - there is a difference. It could be anything but there is no implicit value judgement.

Different value - one is valued more highly than the other. One is considered superior and the other inferior.**

It was explained here really well I thought. Maybe reread a few times and try to understand a. the words and b. the order they are in?

JaxingJump · 08/01/2017 21:13

It doesn't bother me. If I heard the headline I'd probably say what? But then if someone said it was a man who was biologically female I'd say oh ok. That not so strange then. It's unusual for sure but I don't find it a massive leap that although this person will carry and give birth to a child they still feel like a man and ultimately a father. I don't have an issue with that.

qwerty232 · 08/01/2017 21:03

What are we even arguing about Venus? Beachcomber said that women having a 'different value' to men is different from them being 'different' to men. That doesn't make any sense to me. I can't pretend it does.

If Beachcomber didn't in fact say that and I've completely misread what s/he said then the onus is on you to explain how that is the case. And if you can do that then I will admit that I'm wrong. Honestly. Otherwise this exchange will go round in meaningless circles.

venusinscorpio · 08/01/2017 20:45

Totally agree that the newspaper is taking the piss. It's click bait.

Kennington · 08/01/2017 20:42

A male cannot get pregnant.
It is a perfect example of post truth unscientific reporting that has taken over some areas of the media.
It does trans people a huge disservice as the headline is sniggering at them. Everyone knows the information is factually incorrect and a nonsense.

venusinscorpio · 08/01/2017 20:36

Qwerty, I explained to you why I originally disagreed with your interpretation of Beachcomber's point about women being valued differently to men. The onus is on you to say why you think that is wrong. If you can't be arsed to pay attention or keep up, I can't be arsed to discuss it with you. Which is fine by me. But I'm not sure what exactly you're doing here.

AgentCooper · 08/01/2017 20:34

That article has really made me reconsider Everyday Feminism prawn. I never looked at it that regularly, though I remember thinking some of their stuff on intersectionality (mainly vis-a-vis women of colour) was good. But the whole idea of it being vital to acknowledge that 'not everyone who needs an abortion is female' - I couldn't hack that. No minimising of anyone's pain intended but it just smacked of women's rights being gradually whittled even further away until the social conditions and bodies that we live in are seen as irrelevant. Which is very handy for some people who want us to shut up.

The Guardian ran a piece as well saying Carrie Fisher's femaleness wasn't important in remembering her, probably a well intentioned stab at saying she was more than that gold bikini but fuck me, she was a woman with bipolar disorder who had expectations heaped on her that her older male co-stars didn't, whose ability to raise a child while negotiating mental health would have been subject to so much scrutiny, who was told in her 50s to lose weight for the Star Wars sequel. It just struck me as a perfect example of utter complacency when it comes to what women still have to face every day.

Twogoats · 08/01/2017 20:28

Isn't this story just a distractor from the NHS crisis though?

Tbf, it's working!

qwerty232 · 08/01/2017 20:26

Does it matter? I was just querying a point. I thought the poster said that. If you can find it, quote it back to me and show I'm wrong I'll admit it. I can't be bothered to go back and look.

venusinscorpio · 08/01/2017 20:16

But given how wordy your posts are, I think you're being deliberately disingenuous.