British 'man' becomes pregnant

I'm simply seeking to understand why men as a class are more violent towards other humans than women are as a class. I'm suggesting that perhaps women as a class are less cavalier with human life than men as a class because women as a class are the ones who expend time and energy in growing that human life in their bodies.

It's a theory Beachcomber, but an essentialist one. It is tantamount to saying that men are biologically predisposed to be more violent than women - which goes against much feminist thought.

I don't believe that I value the life of my children more than their father. Sure I had to go through pregnancy and childbirth but parenting is about so very much more than the biological beginning.

If the father turned out to be an abusive person, would you think this? If the mother turned out to be an abusive person, would you think this?

Men obviously value the life of the mother more than the children though.

Lass, I already said twice that I was talking about "women as a class" and contrasting with "men as a class".

I'm simply seeking to understand why men as a class are more violent towards other humans than women are as a class. I'm suggesting that perhaps women as a class are less cavalier with human life than men as a class because women as a class are the ones who expend time and energy in growing that human life in their bodies.

No worries if you disagree. I'm interested to hear your ideas as to why men as a class behave with less regard for human life than women as a class do.

This person with female plumbing and a powerful desire to procreate is in no sense a man, Lass.

I don't believe that I value the life of my children more than their father. Sure I had to go through pregnancy and childbirth but parenting is about so very much more than the biological beginning.

This.

JAPAB
If someone has a powerful urge to procreate it isn't that weird to me that they would make use of the parts they have if that is possibly the only practical way they can, whether they wanted those parts or not

But in what sense then is this person who wants to procreate a man? If they are a man what does "man" mean?

What is the difference between a man and a woman?

Beachcomber said I meant what I said. Which is that IMO women have a better understanding of the value of all human life because we do the work that goes into creating that life

Is this all women? Or just those who have been pregnant? Presumably it can't be all women because that would mean all women innately have that better understanding.

Nooka posted this with which I agree.
I read that as an innate difference too, sorry Beachcomber I find the argument that all women value life/children (because they are the ones who bear children) more than more all men very problematic. To me it leads to ideas that of course women should do all childcaring etc, men are from Mars women are from Venus etc

I don't believe that I value the life of my children more than their father. Sure I had to go through pregnancy and childbirth but parenting is about so very much more than the biological beginning.

Oh and also had to raise an autistic child, which was much, much more difficult than being pregnant with him.

Should have added it was a beautiful experience once I'd gone over 15 weeks, as I'd had a previous miscarriage.

I found being pregnant a dawdle and loved it. It was a beautiful experience. I've done work since that was just as good. Lass

I did not have to be hospitalised because of morning sickness though. My cervix did not need a stitch, I did not give birth prematurely before. Et cetera.

You do understand empathy Lass?

What is it about you, Lass, that enables you to navigate experiences that might traumatize other women, whether (as now) pregnancy and birth or, as I recall, never being inconvenienced by any male behaviour ever? I can't think of anything we've discussed recently where you didn't take the position that it was a walk in the park. Maybe I'm being too broad brush stroke but I've definitely gained the impression that when it comes to feminist issues you have a Teflon coating.

Not particularly relevant, but no my pregnancy wasn't work. It's not a case of "undervaluing my body". That to me seems a very strange idea.It was serving a purpose I wanted it to.

I'd done before and have done since work which was far more physically and mentally exhausting than being pregnant.

It is fact that pregnancy requires a considerable input of energy, reorganisation of organs, and significant hormone changes. I find it odd to describe a no physical complications, psychologically easy pregnancy as something that wasn't much work.

It is work making something from nothing.

If someone chooses to undervalue the work their body did because they feel it didn't impact them much that's their choice, obviously. But I would be surprised if the majority of women who have experienced pregnancy would be blasé about the time and effort required to grow a foetus.

I mean... the placenta alone. Even if you didn't grow a foetus the placenta is the size of an organ.

Lass, I've not had personal medical sequela post birth, but that doesn't mean that I can't fail to understand the trauma of giving birth to a child who is disabled, say or to go home to someone who has become physically violent during pregnancy.

Of course pregnancy makes women vulnerable. It is the mark of an excellent and civilised country that recognises this. This is a country that cares for its future.

slithytove There are ways to become a parent to your genetic child which don't involve pregnancy as we all know.

To reject all of your woman body parts and reproductive system to the extent you plan massive invasive surgery is a big step. It just sits oddly with me that they can use that system first.

Finding a surrogate to host the pregnancy for you is not that easy. Plus you'd have to worry about whether they'll change their mind, and other issues.

If someone has a powerful urge to procreate it isn't that weird to me that they would make use of the parts they have if that is possibly the only practical way they can, whether they wanted those parts or not.

I guess we should be grateful this person was born as a woman and is therefore socialised to not put themselves first.

Or maybe they are an actual real person, and therefore not just a walking stereotype of their gender :)

I'm not asserting anything Lass. I said "I think...." and "I may be wrong...."

and then said that I reckoned that women as the class that does the work of having babies, value that work and value life as they have invested time and energy in the producing of it.

I said nothing about sisterhood or motherhood defining women.

It's the universal experience thing tho'. Beachcomber is asserting this as if it were to apply to all women. I would not dismiss any one's difficult pregnancy but I certainly don't feel part of great sisterhood of women just because I've been pregnant or that it was the defining thing in my life.

I do however fail to understand how anyone squares being pregnant and saying they are a man.

I didn't really have any problems in pregnancy and childbirth but I have friends who had to have emergency c sections and luckily everyone involved survived. I can't imagine how twatty they'd think I was if I responded by saying 'well I don't really recognise that description. I was fine

In my experience, women who have had easy pregnancies are the worst at undervaluing the risk and energy involved in undertaking pregnancy and birth.

I am reminded of the bit in Wild Swans where her mother was forced to undertake a long hike by a woman who had been pregnant and given birth in the midst of guerilla fighting, who was very much of the stop moaning and get on with it, other things are harder / more important mindset.

Forgot to link to where quote on risks came from www.maternityworldwide.org/the-issues/

Ok Lass so your personal experience is that pregnancy and childbirth were no big deal and you imply that you do not relate to the idea that pregnancy and childbirth involve an investment of energy, time, risk, etc on the part of a woman.

But it is common knowledge that millions of women are negatively affected by pregnancy and childbirth and huge numbers die:

Having a baby should be a time of great joy and hope. But every year across the world 287,000 women die in pregnancy and childbirth*. That’s one mother dying every 2 minutes, 800 each day. Another 7-10 million women and girls suffer severe or long lasting illnesses caused by complications in pregnancy and childbirth.

The risks are massively lower for women with access to good diets and healthcare. But these women are still at risk from a whole host of health problems, from domestic violence, from discrimination in the workplace, loss of independence, birth trauma, etc. All women with children spend 9 months (on average) per child sharing their body, energy, food, health, etc with another human being. For most of us childbirth is no walk in the park and involves courage, a great deal of energy and generally a great deal of pain. Sometimes it involves being cut or operated on. Sometimes it leaves lasting damage. I think women's bodies and energy are precious and I do think these things are a big deal.

I had moments in both pregnancies where I was very unwell and at risk. It did certainly crystallise for me that it was definitely me that was taking that risk on alone.

I think my DP values the work of bearing children as much as I do, he is capable of seeing things from my POV and can understand he is one step removed from it compared to me. I can see though that it is possible for men generally to be less thoughtful and not really be aware of this, as it doesn't directly affect them.

Just because women understand the labour in creating a product doesn't mean they have an inherent desire to carry out the maintenance or development of that product.

Exactly batteries.

I repeat I am talking about the work/investment/time/energy/risk involvement in pregnancy and childbirth

I've only been pregnant once. What you have written above feels completely alien to my experience so possibly that is why I am failing to get your point.

Yes only women get pregnant but my pregnancy really did not feel like the big deal you describe. Once the baby was here childcare was not my sole responsibility.

Sorry that was in agreement with Beachcomber not arguing against.