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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

860 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/01/2017 08:09

Looks like an interesting watch, that does not just accept the trans children or they will kill themselves rhetoric. I just hope the BBC actually do show it and aren't bullied into not showing it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088kxbw

The blurb:

Around the world there has been a huge increase in the number of children being referred to gender clinics - boys saying they want to be girls and vice versa. Increasingly, parents are encouraged to adopt a 'gender affirmative' approach - fully supporting their children's change of identity. But is this approach right?

In this challenging documentary, BBC Two's award-winning This World strand travels to Canada, where one of the world's leading experts in childhood gender dysphoria (the condition where children are unhappy with their biological sex) lost his job for challenging the new orthodoxy that children know best. Speaking on TV for the first time since his clinic was closed, Dr Kenneth Zucker believes he is a victim of the politicisation of transgender issues. The film presents evidence that most children with gender dysphoria eventually overcome the feelings without transitioning and questions the science behind the idea that a boy could somehow be born with a 'female brain' or vice versa. It also features 'Lou' - who was born female and had a double mastectomy as part of transitioning to a man. She now says it is a decision that 'haunts' her and feels that her gender dysphoria should have been treated as a mental health issue.

OP posts:
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AssassinatedBeauty · 25/01/2017 22:46

That paper is from 1973 and seems to only look at behaviour, not brain structures. How does this support the idea of male and female brains? What do you think about the very recent meta analysis that showed no significant differences between male and female brains?

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 25/01/2017 22:40

A name change may be in order

From hughspeaks to hughlistens

Otherwise there is a danger your name will become

hughdoesntstop talking or hughisbeginningtoannoyeveryone

Hughspeaks · 25/01/2017 22:22

BertrandRussell "Hugh- why are you still talking about male and female brains?"
Because this thread is about transgenderism, which for reasons I've already explained, I think is the result of intersexed or opposite-sexed brain development.

I've attached the first page preview of a paper which illustrates quite well how sex differences in the brain can affect people's behaviour. The paper is entitled Prenatal Exposure to Female Hormones: Effect on Psychosexual Development in Boys, and compares boys who were prenatally exposed to synthetic female hormones (DES or progestins), to otherwise comparable kids who weren't exposed. I have many of the same behavioural attributes, and consider them to be the result of my brain regions controlling complex movement and instinctive social behaviour having developed as female instead of male.

"Based on clinical interviews with the 16 year old subjects and their mothers, the experimental subjects were significantly less "masculine" than the contrast diabetic sample. From judgements of athletic coordination (throwing and catching a ball, swinging a bat, and running), 48 percent or 9 out of 19 experimental subjects received ratings which were considered as indicative of female behavioural movements compared with 12.5 per cent (one of 8) of the contrast diabetic sample or 23.7 percent (5 of 22) of the combined contrast sample."

"Experimental subjects were less aggressive-assertive than the contrast diabetic populations. Of the 10 least aggressive-assertive subjects, 8 were experimental subjects, and 2 were normal contrast subjects."

"The experimentals were less competitive, placed less emphasis on physical prowess, were less success-oriented, and displayed less determination to achieve their goals than the combined contrast groups"

One other thing they mention are physical differences between the "experimentals" and unexposed boys.

"The experimental subjects were shorter (though the same age and weight) and they tended to have a shorter upper body half. The latter body morphology was considered representative of a lowered androgenicity index."

I'm actually the tallest in my family, however my leg length to upper body height is well into the female range, one of the key signs of a type of body structure known as "eunuchoid habitus", which is normally associated with intersex conditions. The fact that these researchers were easily able to spot physical as well as behavioural differences between hormone exposed kids and unexposed ones, reinforces my view that the US federal health agencies must know that the male babies who were exposed to these treatments have ended up intersexed and with female brain development as a result. Rather than admit what happened, they've opted for a cover up, which is hardly surprising considering most people's horror of intersex, and the fact that the FDA approved DES for use in pregnancy even though it caused intersexuality in rats during preliminary testing.

I've also attached a few paragraphs from that paper, talking about "Jim", one of their subjects whom they considered representative of the behavioural changes seen.

"Jim is a 16-year-old boy whose mother has moderately severe diabetes and was treated during the third trimester with diethylstilbestrol (Stilbestrol) and progesterone. Jim was always a lethargic and cautious child. He avoided rough-and-tumble play and any contact sports ... He is a good student academically but has always been a poor athlete ... He ranks himself low (lowest quartile) in his class on both physical power and level of influence. He is a loner and has always avoided competitive situations ... He has had only one fight in his life, does not like to fight ... Jim performed the athletic tasks in a decidedly feminine manner. He threw a ball awkwardly and with little force. Most of the power was generated by the elbow and wrists; he released the ball early in the arc of the throw. He swung a bat through a very short arc with little force with elbows bent and with no breaking of the wrists. He ran mincingly with arms clasped near his chest.

One of the contrast diabetic mothers, a woman with moderately severe diabetes which was recognized approximately one year after the birth of her 16-year-old son, had a second son who at the time of the study was 12 years old. She, of course, received no hormones during the pregnancy with her older son but did receive the progesterone-estrogen regimen during the pregnancy of her second son. The mother gratuitously commented that there is a marked contrast between the two children in that the younger son is an extremely poor athlete, is regarded as a "sissy" by the other boys, will never fight back when pushed, and has never developed an interest in electronic devices or chemical sets as has his older brother."

Again, there are a lot of parallels with my own experiences as a teenager, which I consider to be the result of some parts of my brain having developed as female instead of male.

Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"
Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"
CharlieSierra · 25/01/2017 21:02

I did wonder how the pair of them stumbled across the thread, it sometimes seems like they have some kind of alert system.

That Riley Dennis - batshit.

CocoaX · 25/01/2017 17:45

I feel slightly like I attracted the trolls though, as I mentioned DES in my posts about how hormone treatments had historically been problematic - I meant that as an argument against their experimental use now in children with healthy bodies. hughspeaks might randomly trawl the internet looking for opportunities to hold forth on his special topic.

If this had been a thread on intersex conditions, I would have stayed away. But nonetheless, I feel wary of medical conditions being used to justify spurious and experimental medical interventions where no medical (at least physical) conditions exist. There may be a neurological condition but even then, we don't treat conditions like autism by cutting off body parts, we help the child manage their condition and we manage their environment to help them cope. You know, accept the person not define them by their neurological wiring. Or there may be a mental health condition - again non-invasive intervention would be preferable.

Speaking as a mother with mental health issues and DC on the spectrum who is quite at home wielding a drill and wearing trousers.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/01/2017 17:44

Yes it's Riley Dennis. It's absolutely insane tbh

It is, but is also scarily understandable. If someone earnestly explains to you that it's terribly shallow to care about looks, and it should be about deeper things you might find yourselves nodding and agree. I've watched some of their videos and they are very persuasive and very well argued (although based on lies and fallacy)

If someone explains that TW shouldn't face discrimination you might nod and agree.

If someone explains it's terribly shallow, and terribly bigoted, and terribly old-fashioned to focus on genitals you might agree.

We are enlightened beings, not animals, and we are far more than just our biology.

As sound bites the TA argument can sound pretty sensible, after all we don't discriminate against black people or gay people because of their biology.

You need to look at the issue as a whole to see and understand the issue. And the Tas have got very slick media, and very slick sound bites - I mean what is your immediate visceral reaction to 41% of x characteristic attempts suicide.

Too many people don't have the inclination or the ability to critically think about things - I wasn't aware of the wider issues around transgender until I came across the threads on Mumsnet.

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 25/01/2017 17:31

Yes, please do let's ignore trolls and stay on topic.

ageingrunner · 25/01/2017 17:13

Yes it's Riley Dennis. It's absolutely insane tbh.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 25/01/2017 16:56

This video posits the idea that biological sex is a social construct

Ahhh, isn't that Riley Dennis? I recognise Riley from Magdalen Berns's videos on YouTube.

Ailynn · 25/01/2017 16:48

Thanks for your comments everyone! I'm at work right now, but will respond later after I get back home. One thing I want to say really quickly is I wish I didn't just say "I feel female in my soul"...it's one of the things I wished I could have changed if there was an edit option. I'll explain more later, but it's more of an extreme aversion to being perceived as male. Again, I'll explain more later...sorry. Thanks so much, and I hope you all have a nice day! 😊

Poppyred85 · 25/01/2017 16:26

Sorry, I know we shouldn't feed the troll but I can't let that bit about bioidentical hormones go unchallenged. There is NO evidence that so called bioidentical hormones are better, or less harmful or have fewer side effects than synthetic ones. It is categorically untrue they are safer and the premise for this is based on the false belief that natural=better.
But, as has been said, this is not what this thread is about.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 25/01/2017 16:24

On some other planet, maybe... Meanwhile back on Earth...

ageingrunner · 25/01/2017 16:21

This video posits the idea that biological sex is a social construct

BertrandRussell · 25/01/2017 16:20

"Hugh- why are you still talking about male and female brains?

Because other posters persist in talking about the issues raised in the BBC programme. Once they shut up about that, Hughspeaks will probably to be content to leave the thread alone."

Sorry? Hmm

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 25/01/2017 16:20

In the absence of a 'hide poster' option, which would be useful for persistent derailers, we can choose to stay on topic.

ageingrunner · 25/01/2017 16:18

Well I'm not going to shut up about it. Hugh, the thread isn't about intersex conditions. It's about why children who are normal in terms of sexual development are deciding that they feel like the opposite sex, or identity more with stereotypical behaviour if the opposite sex. And somehow it's becoming accepted that they therefore need to change their bodies to match this false belief that they have about themselves, including castration at a young age 😫

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 25/01/2017 15:40

Because other posters persist in talking about the issues raised in the BBC programme. Once they shut up about that, Hughspeaks will probably to be content to leave the thread alone.

Given the title of the thread that might take a while....

Hughspeaks · 25/01/2017 15:25

DeviTheGaelet The woman in the video is genetically male, but has Swyer's syndrome. What this means is that her embryonic gonads failed to develop into testicles, but instead remained in their undifferentiated state. As a result, all her prenatal development took place without any testicular hormones being present and as you can see, the result is a person who is physically female even though she's genetically male. She was born with the full set of female reproductive organs too, apart from ovaries (in their place will have been "streak gonads", which are the remains of the undifferentiated tissue that failed to develop into testicular tissue).

What Swyer's syndrome shows is that it's not the Y chromosome that causes a genetically male person to develop as male, but the testicles. If for whatever reason the testicles don't develop or don't produce their hormones, that person will develop as female.

There is also a condition called Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS), which also produces genetically male people who are physically female. CAIS involves a mutation that renders that person completely insensitive to androgenic hormones (testosterone and DHT), so although the hormones are actually present, all that person's development takes place as if the hormones weren't there. As with Swyer's syndrome, the result is a person who is genetically male but physically female. In fact, CAIS women tend to be very attractive and voluptuously feminine, since although their bodies can't respond to testosterone, they can (and do) convert it into estradiol. Swyer's women tend to be a lot less strikingly feminine, because their bodies can't produce sex hormones at all, so without hormone treatment, their bodies will always remain in a childlike state and they can never mature into womanhood. From what the woman in that video says, it sounds like her doctors have messed up her hormone treatment (a not unusual occurrence!).

nauticant · 25/01/2017 13:49

Hugh- why are you still talking about male and female brains?

Because other posters persist in talking about the issues raised in the BBC programme. Once they shut up about that, Hughspeaks will probably to be content to leave the thread alone.

ageingrunner · 25/01/2017 13:48

My above post is not to imply that I think there are inherent differences between the brains of the 2 sexes

ageingrunner · 25/01/2017 13:47

A brain in a male body is male
A brain in a female body is female
I watched a YouTube tube video this morning by a tw who asserts that both gender AND biological sex are social constructs. Will it never end? 😫

CantReach · 25/01/2017 13:45

I'be just finished watching the documentary and think it was fair and balanced. I'm surprised at the responses, to be honest, as it showed at least 2 people who were very happy with their transition.

BertrandRussell · 25/01/2017 13:30

Hugh- why are you still talking about male and female brains?

Hughspeaks · 25/01/2017 13:03

DeviTheGaelet Ok hugh assuming your theory is right, what is your suggestion?

As far as I know, the problem is specifically to do with synthetic hormones. The pharmaceutical industry has always promoted them being no different in their effects from the naturally occurring hormones they're designed to mimic, however there are important differences. The human body has enzymes, hormone binding globulins etc that do things like transform one hormone into another, or bind up the hormone to temporarily render it inactive. In general, the synthetics completely bypass those systems, and the result is that they can get into places and do all sorts of things that the naturally occurring hormones wouldn't. That includes being able to cross the placenta and wreak all sorts of harm on the developing foetus.

One important property of the naturally occurring hormones (particularly progesterone) is that they act as a raw material for the production of other hormones. The synthetics don't. It's a bit like the difference between saccharin and sugar, both taste sweet, but your body can only use one as a source of energy.

The synthetics can also "clog up" some of the body's hormone processing enzymes, for instance many progestins are inhibitors of the enzyme 5alpha reductase, which is the enzyme that converts testosterone into DHT (and is also involved in the conversion of progesterone into allopregnanolone, an important neurosteroid).

Synthetics aren't just harmful to the unborn child either. One thing we've found in our trans HRT forum is that the synthetics have all sorts of harmful (and even deadly) side effects when used for HRT in adults, and the pharmaceutical industry must have surely maimed or killed a very large number of women by promoting synthetics for women's HRT. By contrast, as long as their levels are kept within the normal female range, bioidentical estradiol and progesterone seem to be fine. We haven't been able to find any concrete evidence of harm in the scientific literature, and we have forum members who've been taking them for decades without incident.

So I think the problem is specifically with synthetics, and you can probably use bioidentical progesterone during pregnancy if need be without harming your child. Obviously someone needs to do some proper studies to confirm that though!

ageingrunner · 25/01/2017 12:56

Coincidence? 🤷‍♀️