Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

There's a gender critical blog called something like 'You think that we don't understand, but we just don't believe you'
You should have a look, Hugh

Oh god, Hugh - give it up.

Hugh-do you have any data less than 17 years old? Are you perhaps ignoring more up to date research because it debunks the blue/pink brain hypothesis?

"There is NO evidence that so called bioidentical hormones are better, or less harmful or have fewer side effects than synthetic ones. It is categorically untrue they are safer and the premise for this is based on the false belief that natural=better. "

Both bioidentical hormones and most synthetics are produced in a laboratory from the same precursor chemicals (usually either diosgenin extracted from yams, or from soybean phytosterols). So they're both manmade from that point of view. The difference is that bioidentical hormones have the identical chemical structure to the hormones that occur naturally in the human body, so your body can't tell the difference, and processes and metabolises them in exactly the same way it would hormones it had produced itself. Synthetics, by contrast, have a chemical structure that's been modified to give them improved properties as medicines, e.g. increased potency, longer duration of action, high bioavailability when taken by mouth (bioidentical hormones all have poor bioavailability when taken by mouth, and really need to be injected to give good, consistent absorbtion).

It's great from a doctor's point of view that they can give the patient a pill instead of having them coming in all the time for injections, however, there is a downside. Tinkering around with the chemical structure means that the synthetics are no longer processed in the same way as the body's own hormones (and bioidentical hormones) are. In addition to acting as hormones, the main sex hormones (estradiol, progesterone and testosterone) all act as raw materials for the production of other hormones (estradiol is converted into estriol and estrone, progesterone into corticosteroids, allopregnanolone and precursors to estrogens and androgens, testosterone into estradiol and DHT). The synthetics are either completely untouched by the enzymes that do these conversions, or converted into other unnatural hormonally active substances which can have unexpected properties (this is probably a big part of the reason why ethisterone and norethisterone turned out to masculinise female foetuses, even though they're only weakly androgenic in adult women).

As a result, the synthetics don't act as raw materials for production of other hormones. This is particularly a problem with progestins, since progesterone occupies a central place in the biosynthesis pathway for multiple other hormones, and if you replace progesterone with a progestin, it's going to affect production of all those other hormones. In our trans HRT group, we think interference with neurosteroid synthesis is why high dose, long term progestin use sends people loopy. Trans women have a reputation for often being depressed and mentally unstable, but this is largely because doctors routinely give them medroxyprogesterone acetate (a progestin) and antiandrogen drugs (spironolactone or cyproterone acetate) which also act as progestins. Once you cut out all the synthetic crap, the depression and emotional instability generally disappear. Progesterone itself actually has an antidepressant effect (or it does for me anyway).

I've attached a simplified diagram of steroid hormone biosynthesis, which shows the central place progesterone occupies in the hormone biosynthesis pathway (this diagram only shows some of the more important hormones, there are actually many more).

Mental gymnastics is right. My mind was blown when watching that Riley chap trying to justify his assertion that biological sex doesn't exist. He's obviously spent ages thinking about it, but just in such a bizarre way. You're a man! Own it ffs.
I wonder if his girlfriend believes that she doesn't need to use contraception? 🤔

"It does strike me that living a lie (believing you are the opposite sex and getting pissed up when people can see that you're not) must not be a very mentally healthy way to live. I can see why it might seem like the only choice for some people though"

I agree that it is not healthy. And I don't see how it can be "the only choice" or even doable in practice.

I can't suspend disbelief to believe in a God, or even long enough to enjoy badly-crafted sci-fi movies with unrealistic plots. It is literally impossible for me to go along with the TA delusion that penises are female if found on bodies of men who want to be women. The mental gymnastics necessary to agree to that sort of complete and utter nonsense is beyond my mathematical brain's capabilities.

I do feel sorry for people who need the whole world to lie about what's in front of their eyes to feel good about themselves, but not enough to reconfigure my brain to accept lies and gaslighting as reality.

It does strike me that living a lie (believing you are the opposite sex and getting pissed up when people can see that you're not) must not be a very mentally healthy way to live. I can see why it might seem like the only choice for some people though. The problem is that trans behaviour is reinforcing gender stereotypes, not challenging them. I'm not sure why this is difficult for some to understand really

"“assigned male at birth” because that is usually the polite way of talking on that subject in the transgender community. Saying “born a boy” upsets a large group of people"

A large part of the problem that women have with transwomen is your tendency to get "upset" by actual facts and physical reality.

Nobody "assigned" you a sex when you were born. It was just clear to everyone who was at your birth, be it the doctor, midwife, nurses, your own mother and father and whoever else changed your nappies that you actually were a boy.

"“Feeling female.” ... extreme feeling of aversion toward being perceived as a male."

Most older women have an extreme feeling of aversion toward being perceived as old & fat but they don't go around telling people "I feel like Victoria's Secret models, so I am one. You are exclusionary and _phobic if you don't accept that I am a supermodel with a gorgeous body". That would be crazy.

"Usually, I socially interact much more naturally with women then men."

I interact more naturally with men than women. So?

"I enjoy feminine, pretty things…"

I don't care for feminine, "pretty" things. Again, so? That doesn't mean I am a man or "feel like a man".

"and feel natural when wearing dresses or makeup"

I don't. It's a chore to doll up and teeter on heels for the few events I need to get dressed up for. Again... so what?

"I am kind and nurturing, and genuinely enjoy taking care of people"

Many women aren't and don't. Again, so what? That doesn't mean they are not women.

"I have an aversion toward fighting and violence"

So do many men. I don't mind it, myself.

None of the above makes me NOT a woman. None of it makes me a man, either. Similarly, none of your preferences re the above makes you a woman or not a man.

I get that you want to get doll up and you should do what makes you happy. I also get that you want to be a woman and not a man. But we sometimes desire what we are not and it's part of being an adult to see and accept reality.

Ailynn

Thanks for that! You do seem like a nice person and I totally understand how you can feel as though you can only really express yourself through a female persona. We had a trans-women here once who said she felt far more 'vibrant' as a woman. In our gender constrained world, it was more socially acceptable.

However I echo choc's post in that 'hating your genitalia and wanting to express femininity' is not the definition of woman.

I don't know if you identify as having AGP (and I'm not asking because it's personal), but many people who have a similar profile to yours, do.

Can you understand that when those who identify as AGP, say they are women and want access to women's spaces it's a bit of a problem for women?

You feel so much more comfortable as a woman, away from masculinity.
Many women feel the same.

If someone is unhappy with their status as a man, wants to express femininity and be accepted as such I don't think there's anyone who would have a problem with it. It's the wholesale acceptance that the person IS a woman and all the rights and benefits of women (such as they are) should be accrued to them.

If TRAs were a little more upfront and logical and weren't pushing an agenda that has the potential to harm women, they would find a whole load of extra allies.

The fact that you have been subjected to harassment by merely expressing femininity is wrong on every score. Women (believe me) totally get that. It may not be for the same reason, but it's still shit.

And I, for one, would stand shoulder to shoulder with you to stop that. Toxic masculinity benefits no-one.

But women have fought long and hard for their rights and my ideal would be to find mutual support without those rights conflicting.

Thanks Ailynn. I think it's so sad that you felt you couldn't be yourself without medication and surgery. It sounds like you grew up in quite a rigidly gendered environment too, which can't have helped. I hope you manage to find some peace with yourself.

I think ailynns post sums up how most people on here think

Thank you for posting

De-lurking to say I found Ailynn's comments so enlightening as an explanation of how people who are biologically male may arrive at the conclusion they 'feel female', simply because they do not feel male.

If boys are allowed to believe they can dislike violence, enjoy 'pretty things' and still be male, so much of this becomes a non-issue. Likewise, girls need to know that they don't have to play with dolls, wear dresses or do ballet to be female. Getting rid of these limiting gender stereotypes can only benefit us all.

Thanks Ailynn - that was very thorough - given your description - Well, I suppose it is perhaps more of an extreme feeling of aversion toward being perceived as a male...... I enjoy feminine, pretty things…and feel natural when wearing dresses or makeup

Can you see how women could find that pretty offensive? I, and many women have no problem with you dressing how you like, having all the hobbies and interests that you want, but the idea that not-man == woman - well, it's insulting isn't it? - like women aren't really people, we don't have our own personhood, we're just 'not-men'

ROFL Hugh - that paper could be describing my two boys - one quite effeminate, not great at sports or very strong, and one who's a little tank - and my mother has never even been on the pill, let alone any other hormone treatments, and I took no medications during either pregnancy. One or two case studies (or anecdotes) from 40 years ago or present day mean nothing

Riley Dennis speaks really quickly in that ever so reasonable so you must agree with me tone of voice, so you come out of the video not really knowing what was said, but feeling like you probably agree.

My aforementioned two sons strongly indicate to me that sex isn't a social construct however, if Riley could explain how they came into being, and how I can socially construct it so DP has the next one he's hankering for, I'd be most grateful

Ailynn thank for replying - what you seem to be saying is that you felt "not male" rather than "female" then? And if you were "not male" then you "had" to be female, as what was the opposite of "male"? If so, that seems to be broadly similar to things I've read from TW who are not the "I say I'm a woman therefore I am a woman and you must all believe that along with me" types who are getting a lot of the airtime atm. I think AGuyCalledHelen has a blog post along those lines (apologies if I'm misremembering the name). A rejection of what being a man stands for rather than actually being a woman, and acceptance that they are a transwoman, not a man, not a woman.

Does that seem an accurate interpretation of what you posted?

(I apologize for the long delay, and for this very long-winded response! I promise to bow out of the conversation...my intent is certainly not to be a troll in any way.)

• illegitimateMortificadospawn: Sorry, I used the phrase “assigned male at birth” because that is usually the polite way of talking on that subject in the transgender community. Saying “born a boy” upsets a large group of people, so I used the phrase that usually works best within most of my social circles.

“Feeling female.” Well, I suppose it is perhaps more of an extreme feeling of aversion toward being perceived as a male. Here also where where it is easy to fall into stereotypical views on what it means to me “male” or “female.” Usually, I socially interact much more naturally with women then men. I enjoy feminine, pretty things…and feel natural when wearing dresses or makeup…almost a feeling or relief. I like feeling pretty if and when possible. I am kind and nurturing, and genuinely enjoy taking care of people. I have an aversion toward fighting and violence, even when it is something as tame as sports or even those “blooper” videos where people get hurt in an accident and it’s somehow supposed to be hilarious.

Obviously, these are all obviously stereotypical attributes to femininity…and I absolutely do not believe women should be nurturing or submissive in any way. A woman does not need to be pretty or enjoy pretty things. They can be just as tough or tougher than men, kick ass at sports, and go lumberjack-stylin’ all they want. Every woman is beautiful in her own way exactly how she feels and wants to be perceived.

• ItsAllGoingToBeFine: Ohh, good question! :) I hope my answer doesn’t become too detailed or embarrassing here, but I’ll answer honestly. Pinpointing my sexuality has always been a very confusing thing for me. As far as sexual attraction goes, I guess you could say I was basically asexual growing up. I thought women were very beautiful, yet I never actually wanted to have sex with a woman…even in fantasy. Actually, I should clarify…I never ever fantasized about having sexual intercourse with a woman…or even had any fantasies involving me with male parts. I did occasionally have fantasies of kissing or performing cunnilingus. I’m sure part of this was because I always disliked my genitals…actually, I despised them. I believe it came from the dull ache or cramps I often had in my left testicle, and because these genitals were directly responsible for others thinking I was a boy.

In regards to attraction toward men, well…I didn’t really have that either. I mean, sure…some guys were handsome, but none ever made me get that feeling of “I want him.” The weird thing though, was that my fantasies from around age 15 on, were of me as a woman being intimate with a man. Kissing, intercourse, oral sex…even getting married and becoming a mother with a beautiful child…I had these fantasies frequently. Still, I was always so confused on why I so rarely found any men attractive in reality.

It was always confusing for me if someone asked me if I was gay. I wasn’t attracted to women, and I was only attracted to men in my fantasies where I was completely female. I can say that now, after I have been medically transitioning for a year, I feel much more at home with my sexuality…and consider myself a “straight trans woman.” Even though I’ve not dated men as of yet, I do feel much more attracted to men than before. Still, as far as sex goes…I’m only really interested in that after I manage to have gender affirming surgery.

In regards to any trans activists acting homophobic, I have seen that extremely rarely. The times I have seen it are because of the mistreatment they have suffered at the hands of gay men or lesbians. Trans or not, ANYONE who says something as idiotic as “lesbians are just transmen in denial” needs to shut up. That’s as ignorant and awful as people saying “trans women are just perverted men or pedophiles.” Statements like these are terrible and false, and people need to stop. We are ALL just trying to live happy lives true to ourselves…be they any race or religion, straight, bi, gay, lesbian, trans, man, woman, intersex, whatever. We ALL suffer with our own pains and worries. People just need to be compassionate for other people of all types…a shared empathy…and this world could truly be something great. :)

• MyVisionsComeFromSoup: Thanks for the question! My answers up above I believe may answer that for you, although in my exhausted state I’m sure I’m leaving very obvious things out. Also, I love your nickname! :)

• ageingrunner: Oh, that was certainly a factor for sure! All my life, I had heard that gay people were just people who had given themselves over to a sinful nature…and in school in the 90’s (and trigger warning here), I heard terms like “sissy”, “fag” or “faggot” on a constant basis around school. It was obvious to me that those who identified as gay would be met with opposition. Even stronger than that it seemed, were negative attitudes people seemed to have toward the “gay” people who dressed up in the clothes of the opposite sex. Back then, anything even remotely LGBT was just considered “gay”…and therefore, “bad.” I knew I wanted to be a girl, but I didn’t understand why. I knew I wasn’t like the characters in Bosom Buddies, which were just regular guys trying to be sneaky for laughs. I knew I wasn’t like Dr Frank-N-Furter in Rocky Horror, who was sadistic and a sex-maniac. i just wanted to be a girl, be pretty if possible and wear pretty things, and feel…normal. I was just too much of a coward though to let anyone know, even on “Opposite Day” during school pride week (this was a day where the cheerleaders dressed like football players and vise versa). I knew that if even the smallest hint was shown, then I would face endless bullying, so I decided I would try my very best to be the guy everyone expected me to be…and I tried, hard…for over 30 years. It only led me to depression, anxiety, and eventually near suicide.

But, all is okay! I’m feeling much happier now these days after beginning hormone therapy at age 41. I hope that answers the question; as I said earlier I’m exhausted and probably rambling. :)

Did Ailynn come back?

I only really understood the conclusion of what you are saying. Are you seriously saying that people who can't throw balls must be women?

Hugh- that paper is over 40 years old.............

OK Hugh. If only to shut you up re prenatal hormones Let's accept for a moment despite the complete and utter lack of evidence that your brain was awash in female hormones as a fetus. And that you were left a feminine man as a result - one who can't throw a ball or run like his peers.

So?

That doesn't make you a woman. That doesn't make your brain a female brain, either. Let's face it: Every single cell in your body is XY, including your brain. That means you have a male brain in a male body, regardless of whether or not you were exposed to the wrong hormones while in the womb.

Can you give a sign that you understand what I am saying?

So being crap at throwing and being in the bottom 25% of your class makes you feminine?

It was quite exhausting

And there you have it.

This reminds me of my ex, who would just keep repeating the same argument in different words, louder, maybe longer and more complicated words or a polite tone varied with shouty or icy cold or charming, but the same argument which I had disagreed with. He called it a communication issue. No, not a communication issue, I simply did not agree. I communicated the reasons for disagreeing just fine. He did not listen, just found a new way of trying to get me to agree. It was quite exhausting.

hughspeaks if you have explained something and people don't agree with you, and you have been arguing the same issue for ages and people still don't agree, then is there not a point where it is courteous to just accept that?

Cutting edge science. Marking my place to try to remember to find the whole paper tomorrow.