Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

I think it was puberty too, which is one reason why blockers are so dangerous.
We know that puberty has something to do with brain development but we don't know enough to know what the consequences for overall development of artificially stopping puberty are. These kids are being experimented on.

I'm cross about Zucker being sacked too. He seemed very balanced in his approach and to have genuinely helped that girl and her family, and the little boy and his family.
Whereas the dad with the teen who transitioned seemed off. All that stuff about "running like a girl", "using hands like a girl". It was sad.

I watched the first half of the programme with near outrage waiting for the gender critical stuff to start but now I think it was really clever. They've dedicated at least half of the time to the pro-side but they really shown how creepy it can be (Dr Spack and those summer camps!) and essentially given them enough rope to hang themselves whilst still being sympathetic.

said she felt better when she started doing male things like soccer and baseball, my heart sank. Is that ALL it was? Too simplistic
I don't think that was all it was. She talked about comorbid symptoms like anxiety and also about joining the girls baseball team and finding somewhere she fitted in. I think she possibly had a MH condition that she started being treated for and that and social acceptance as she was sorted the dysphoria.
Rather than "I feel like a misfit - girls don't like me. I know, I must be a boy really"

I have a friend whose daughter seems to have been sucked into trans through her group at school. Mother doesn't think she's trans at all and never showed any sign - just sucked in bu her boyfriend (now a girl) and the trans community. changed mame and planning top durgery at 18.

What an excellent idea, indominus.

In many ways I can understand why some male children are attracted to the idea of being a girl. They may feel girls have a kinder, more caring lifestyle and don't have to be "strong" and fight - sometimes literally - to get what they want. On one of these threads earlier in the year someone posted this and I feel it sums it up very well:

I can understand "want to be treated the way I see girls getting treated / think I would enjoy wearing the clothes/ adopting the roles / having the choices that I see girls in my culture having"

But of course that isn't feeling like a girl. It isn't being a girl. It's a desire for a different way of life. It isn't sharing a feeling in common with girls. There isn't a mindset common to girls, is there? There is no feeling like a girl.

18 just seems so young to be so sure you want suvh drastic sirgery. I think that actually shows how still immature many are. And so many transfolk so eager to back them up saying they are adults and know what they want. I wonder how many really regret it.

I notice Gina Rippon is pro vice chancellor at Aston University. I'm thinking of sending a small donation to them stating that it is in support of her work debunking myths around male/female brains.

Maybe I too was a bit harsh. It got better as the programme went on.
Right from the off they presented Zucker as the man who had lost his job through actually having outdated and awful old fashioned ideas. But I found him the most rational and convincing. It IS a complex issue.

And the trans man dismissing the minority, which he IS, didn't do himself any favours.

Strange that the new chief exec commented without even having watched the programme! ooopps!

When the young girl, with the American dad who got the photos developed, said she felt better when she started doing male things like soccer and baseball, my heart sank. Is that ALL it was? Too simplistic! Why wasn't that possible? She hasn't grown up in THe dark ages, it was only a few years ago. Kids do all sorts of activities these days that are more gender irrelevant - loads of girls playing football etc - we have got better recently.

Yes, some/most grow out of it/change. Realise that they actually don't want to change gender. A 3 or 4 year old can't possibly comprehend what having that final surgery - penis removal for e.g., is going to do to them. They STILL might find that they don't feel right and still don't fit in.

I don't know, but I Imagine:

I would imagine it doesn't solve everything. You still wouldn't quite fit in, you wouldn't be 'normal' or 'neuro typical'.
You might decide you are gay, many do. Those few that still want surgery, of courses they should have it.
I suspect they'll still need a lot of counselling and support afterwards.

Maybe this programme at least bought all of this into discussion. Which can only be good.

I'd love to see a high profile older woman come out fighting about the HRT thing. It's such a clear example of women being treated as second class citizens.

That woman who was media scapegoated for having breast implants on the NHS - she had entirely flat breasts and was probably very dysphoric herself, yet she was vilified as a drain on resources. But trans women get fake breasts on the NHS and trans men have theirs removed and they are brave soldiers. It's hypocritical. Likewise menopausal women have to stop taking HRT at a certain age even if they want to continue despite the risks but trans women are on it for life apparently...

Well the second half was a lot better. Sorry for commenting in outrage before I'd seen it all...

The dad of the girl who decided not to transition was a bit infuriating. He "refused to treat her differently"? Oh yes, because obviously you treat sons and daughters completely differently... I assume that was part of the problem. And she accepted herself by deciding she wanted to wear "girls clothes".... argh. Good on her for speaking out though, I hope she doesn't get harmed as a result of this. "Lou" even more so.

This probably sounds wrong but I felt like I wanted to pay for Lou to have re-feminising cosmetic surgery. (If I had the money I might actually think about it.) That doesn't exactly sit right with me either, but it was so sad the way she felt about her body after regretting surgery. It made me wonder about reassignment surgery on the NHS... I gather it's very hard to get (?) but wondered whether detransitioning surgery was even more so? I'm struggling to put it into words, but something seems very off about campaigning for healthy bodies to be surgically altered for one group due to psychological distress, whilst other's (often women's) psychological distress at their bodies doesn't count for much, even if it causes physical pain... erm... not putting this very well... stuff like damage caused by birthing babies, or needing labiaplasty because it's causing medical problems...

Thanks tygr. So it was only in 2015. It has often puzzled me because I tend to think that sexuality is different to gender dysphoria.

Gina Rippon does look like Angela Rippon - hugely!

Gah - twice. I'm on the app. Not going to try again.

Link fail

www.divamag.co.uk/category/news/stonewall-“we-apologise-to-trans-people-for-the-harm-we-have-caused”.aspx

"Re Stonewall, I apologise if this is an ignorant question but how did trans become lumped together with lesbian/bi/gay anyway?"

It only happened relatively recently as far as Stonewall is concerned, I assume because it was thought that the trans struggle against transphobia was similar to LGB+ struggle against homophobia and better to campaign and support together than separately. It was when they appointed a new chief exec that the change happened from an exclusively sexuality to a gender and sexuality rights organisation.

Having then felt that they took too long to embrace the trans agenda, Stonewall do seem now to be trying to make up for lost time. Ruth Hunt (chief exec) apologised to the trans community for the time taken to include them in the organisation:

www.divamag.co.uk/category/news/stonewall-“we-apologise-to-trans-people-for-the-harm-we-have-caused”.aspx

Anyway, turns out that the press release/blog she wrote about the programme was written without watching the episode and so I wonder what they'll say tomorrow?

Good point about the glossing over. It's all rainbows, make up and summer camp if you listen to the genderists.

It was good that they did show brief images of surgery. Plus there was an excellent moment showing a child having drugs injected into their leg and the voiceover said something along the lines of transing being about "accepting the child for who they are". Um, ok, why are you injecting something into them that is going to change them then?!

Re Stonewall, I apologise if this is an ignorant question but how did trans become lumped together with lesbian/bi/gay anyway?

How difficult must it be to cope with all the post-operative stuff at such a young age. The manual dilation of an artificially created vagina for hours a day for years, the lubrication etc... all at the age of 18. I just feel really uncomfortable when they represent transitioning as being about wafting around in dresses and shots of make-up application when it is a brutal process. I can't help feeling that the mastectomies and penectomies are sometimes THE most extreme manifestations of self-harm. I understand that for some all this is preferable to the living hell of gender dysphoria but it does tend to get glossed over a lot when talking about unquestioningly supporting your 9 year old on their 'journey'. I thought it was a great documentary and I think there should be some embarrassed people amongst the 10000+ people who signed that petition to have the programme pulled. By all means disagree, comment and debate on the issues it raised NOW once you've seen it but to have railed against it so vociferously before having watched it was ridiculous and alarming. I almost wept when the neuro scientist said we're going back to the 17th and 18th centuries when we start talking about male and female brains.

Have been on twitter and as a bisexual woman I'm really disappointed by the things that Stonewall have been tweeting about the dangerous narratives the programme portrayed. I've replied to them and hope I don't get dragged into anything but ensuring people are trans and not gay but unable to accept it is surely the right approach and Stonewall should be able to support people in both positions.

Found this article about Zucker too. It's long but has some interesting background on his 'discrediting'.

nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html

Agree that it was breathtaking how experiences like Lou's were dismissed. Also that poor child at the end who clearly didn't have a clue about what the "hard time" involved, just as Lou hadn't.

I don't know how obvious it would be to a viewer unfamiliar with the subject of transing children but I thought it was very revelatory that Zucker and his "side" referred to the children as "having gender dysphoria" whilst the transing people referred to them as "trans" as though it was a foregone conclusion that gender dysphoria = trans.

One thing they did fail to talk about is the self fulfilling prophecy nature of the transing of children. Social transition is not benign as it sets a child on a route - you are telling them they must be trans/the opposite sex.

I felt very sorry for the 9 year old boy who seemed to be parroting an adult with his talk of his "journey" and the "pieces of his puzzle". You could practically hear the parents voice. Plus he seemed to mix up whether he wanted to be a boy or a girl.

And I was shocked by the 17 year old who had had his penis removed and the narrator describing him as "a woman" - a 17 year old is not a woman (or a man) they are a child. I felt it was a bit of a cover up of the fact that this child had had surgery so young by describing them in adult terms.