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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

860 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/01/2017 08:09

Looks like an interesting watch, that does not just accept the trans children or they will kill themselves rhetoric. I just hope the BBC actually do show it and aren't bullied into not showing it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088kxbw

The blurb:

Around the world there has been a huge increase in the number of children being referred to gender clinics - boys saying they want to be girls and vice versa. Increasingly, parents are encouraged to adopt a 'gender affirmative' approach - fully supporting their children's change of identity. But is this approach right?

In this challenging documentary, BBC Two's award-winning This World strand travels to Canada, where one of the world's leading experts in childhood gender dysphoria (the condition where children are unhappy with their biological sex) lost his job for challenging the new orthodoxy that children know best. Speaking on TV for the first time since his clinic was closed, Dr Kenneth Zucker believes he is a victim of the politicisation of transgender issues. The film presents evidence that most children with gender dysphoria eventually overcome the feelings without transitioning and questions the science behind the idea that a boy could somehow be born with a 'female brain' or vice versa. It also features 'Lou' - who was born female and had a double mastectomy as part of transitioning to a man. She now says it is a decision that 'haunts' her and feels that her gender dysphoria should have been treated as a mental health issue.

OP posts:
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ageingrunner · 27/01/2017 17:15

We also had a "lesbian" PE teacher, who wasn't a lesbian at all. Not that it would have mattered if she was of course. They were quite hot on making sure we had naked showers though. Luckily this was late 80s early 90s so there were no female-identifying males there!

justawoman · 27/01/2017 17:01

We thought that one of our sports teachers was a lesbian and liked watching the girls get changed when I was in high school, too. Looking back, it was entirely because she had short hair and was, well, sporty. She was actually a lovely and not at all creepy person and she gave me some help towards the end of my school days which I've always appreciated. Around that time I met her with her husband out of school and, shock horror, when she didn't have to be dressed in a tracksuit to teach sport, she looked entirely different (dress and make up).

I think "The PE teacher's a lesbian!! And a creep!!" is one of those silly urban myths teenage girls make up and share.

WankingMonkey · 27/01/2017 16:21

There most likely haven't been many further studies along those lines since about 2005 because by then the point had already been made: Dr Money (and Dr Zucker) were wrong: your gender identity is hardwired into your brain and already in place by the time you're born, and you can't arbitrarily reassign babies to another sex and expect it to work.

OK. A thought experiment. Lets take 50 male babies and 50 female babies. Separate them from the world as we know it and raise them with total 'gender neutrality'..when they hit say 25...would they know any differences between each other besides purely biological (eg, males have one body, females the other...and so on)

If not. How can 'gender identity' be hardwired into brains since birth?

If you think they would know any differences, what differences, and how would they know this?

Poppyred85 · 27/01/2017 16:13

Ailynn, once again your post has been insightful and gracious. I agree with others that the thought of changing in front of lesbians does not bother me at all but changing in front of a man (even one I knew well) would make me uncomfortable. I genuinely don't know what the solution is for transwomen. I am sure the vast majority have no more intent to assault a woman any more than the rest of us but there does seem to be research (from what I've read and happy to be corrected if I'm wrong) that even those who have transitioned medically still follow male patterns of criminal behaviour in terms of crimes perpetrated rather than following female patterns of offending. Given this, it seems to me that in changing facilities that are closed off (I.e. Not cubicles on the poolside for example) there needs to be a space for women to change with other women only. However, it does not sit well with me then that transwomen such as Ailynn may face male violence if using "male" changing rooms. I guess it's then the solution of least risk for the highest number of people and potentially exposing some to risk of harm. As I say, at an individual level this seems unsatisfactory but I really don't know what the solution is.

Xenophile · 27/01/2017 13:41

Thanks Some!

SomeDyke · 27/01/2017 13:35

As regards the zebra finch:

Neural, not gonadal, origin of brain sex differences in a gynandromorphic finch.
Agate RJ1, Grisham W, Wade J, Mann S, Wingfield J, Schanen C, Palotie A, Arnold AP.

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Apr 15;100(8):4873-8.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12672961/
dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0636925100

I got there from this article:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4132582/

Ailynn · 27/01/2017 12:11

Thank you everyone! I definitely want it known that I myself absolutely agree that it's ridiculous for straight women to be worried any time a lesbian would enter the bathroom as a possible predator. It's preposterous! The reason I included that before (and I meant to go into detail and forgot to), was that back when I was in school, there was a female Gym Class teacher who the entire school talked about being lesbian, and I would hear stories about how she would hang around way too long in the bathroom and watching all the girls in the locker room. It creeped them out, understandably. This is an insanely rare case, IF it was ever true at all. Rumors spread can be so damaging, and I hope that this teacher never learned what the girls were saying about her if it was false.

I understand the worry, both for women and their little girls. I used to have an intense fear of bullies, and nearly any trans woman has. I believe that's the main concern for transgender people...for trans men, they would understandably make women uncomfortable in a woman's bathroom due to them usually being indistinguishable from a person born physically male. Trans women worry about both bathrooms in a lot of cases...I know that I myself was incredibly of other ladies seeing me in the women's bathroom while at a convention last year, as the bathrooms were always full and I didn't want them feeling nervous or angry (I'm 5'10" with a larger frame, and just cannot currently come across as born female, although I HOPE that changes someday). On the other hand, I'm absolutely terrified of men seeing me in the men's room, because I've known the fear of being tormented or beaten before even when presenting as male.

With as many transgender people who desire to change their genitalia to match their gender identity, the numbers of those who have had it done are minimal. It's simply for most people the ultimate dream that they HOPE for, but are worried may never be able to achieve. I doubt I would ever have enough money for it even saving up for a lifetime. Still, I hold onto the hope that some beautiful day, I can be rid of what has been a lifelong reminder that I am different than most everyone else in my life, and often a source of scorn.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/01/2017 10:05

Ailynn You've taken a lot of time to post on this thread and your answers have been very interesting so thanks for taking so much time Flowers

I actually believe the term “trans woman” is completely appropriate in most cases, and I do believe a distinction is important

No arguments there :)

OP posts:
Datun · 27/01/2017 10:02

Ailynn

I suppose maybe it could be a similar level of concern for a straight woman if a lesbian entered the bathroom maybe?

I'm echoing Galla above. Lesbians being attracted to women is often used to justify the presence of a man who is attracted to women.

It simply is not the same. I do wish people would stop thinking it was. Women simply don't have the same level of male pattern violence. The objectification of women is not the same as being attracted to them.

I, and all women, have been sharing our bathrooms with lesbians all our lives. It's simply not a problem. The presence of a male, not only alters the dynamic it adds a completely different element. Whether you think it's predatory, threatening, or just downright different. Are all men threatening? No, course they aren't. But firstly I don't really wish to get changed in front of them, and secondly we have no way of telling.

The very fact that there are demands of this nature being made, automatically leads to the questioning of why? If it's just validation, it's a fairly shit reason as far as women are concerned. And if it's more than that, it's a definite no from me!

But thanks for posting. I don't think anyone reading your post could fail to have compassion for your situation. And, it has to be said, it goes a long way to seeing why opinion on this issue is fairly polarised. I don't see you as either a threat or someone to be excluded (bathrooms excepted, for all the reasons above). If the TRAs had the same outlook as you, the problem will simply disappear.

The only thing I would question is how many people have surgery. From statistics that I have read, they are the minority, not the majority. Which, again, wouldn't matter if there wasn't the insistence on appropriating women's spaces.

I'm glad you are well on the road to finding peace with yourself and I wish you all the luck.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 27/01/2017 09:57

Hmm Just like any woman who objects to males being around as she comes out of the gym showers wearing a towel?

My gym has individual shower cubicles but it would be impossible to dress in one. The only alternative would be using the disabled facilities.

ageingrunner · 27/01/2017 09:48

Completely agree with you wrt lesbians (female ones that is Wink) being no problem in women's spaces because they're women. I would feel fine undressing in a changing room if I knew another woman there was lesbian, but not if a gay man was there. It's nothing to do with potential sexual attraction, and everything to do with having common biology and the likelihood of being sexually assaulted by a woman being very small. I know that women do carry out sexual assault, but with NOWHERE NEAR the frequency that men do. I don't wish to be naked, or changing clothes if men are present. I have seen transwomen argue that people don't take all their clothes off when changing into gym clothes, so any woman who objects to men being there when she's in her underwear are just upright prudes Hmm

PoochSmooch · 27/01/2017 09:08

I do speak French and I had a look at the HHORAGES website that hugh is citing. Leaving aside the fact that it strays into tin foil hat territory (which it does), it makes no mention whatsover of intersex issues as far as I can see. So even if you did think trans was in any way related to intersex disorders (which it isn't), it's irrelevant. Doubly so since from my understanding they are focused on synthetic hormones that were banned in the late 1970s.

Just thought I would pop in my 2p worth on that.

Totally agree with the concern voiced over raising "sterile adults with the brains of children" (nicely put, if somewhat horrifying to think about). If there are not swathes of lawsuits in the futures of the doctors conducting these unregulated human trials, I will eat my hat.

Gallavich · 27/01/2017 08:38

Hi ailynn, thanks for the post and for your contribution on this thread. It's refreshing.
I would just like to say though re this statement I suppose maybe it could be a similar level of concern for a straight woman if a lesbian entered the bathroom maybe?
Lesbians don't sexually assault or rape other women. Men do. The issue women have about males in bathrooms etc is not fear that they will be sexually attracted to them, it's fear they will sexually or physically harm them. I've never met a lesbian who made me feel physically intimidated, even if she was built like a tank. Men though...some only need to look at you a certain way and you know you're in danger. That's women's lived reality all over the world.

Ailynn · 27/01/2017 06:36

• MyVisionsComeFromSoup: Thanks for the question! I want to say that, while I have always felt “not male”…I know that it’s not really correct to say “I feel completely female” as I stupidly said in my first post before I realized I couldn’t edit anything out. The main lesson I’ve learned here…it’s not a good idea for me to post in a public forum while groggy, because I usually will make embarrassing mistakes.

The last thing I want is to belittle what it means to be a woman. I cannot know exactly what it means to feel female, because as much as it pains me to admit it, I was not born in a female body. No matter how much I desire it, I will never be able to carry a child, or be a natural mother. At the same time, I know that even if a woman is unable to have children, she is no less a woman. As much as some trans activists fight for complete gender equality, and saying that “I may still have a penis, but I am still a woman”…I still believe it is fine and maybe preferable for people like me to be called “trans women.” It differentiates us from a person born female (other than the term “cis-gender”, which I don’t really care for.)

Sorry, I’m trailing off…basically, I feel I have a feminine spirit, and I am happiest when people perceive me that way. Portraying myself in that way makes me feel joyful, while trying to fit into a masculine world feels alien and depressing to me. I’m honestly not sure where I fit in anymore, but I’m not so worried anymore about needing to. I have a fairly large frame, and I know that no one is ever going to look at me and think I was born a little girl. I’m coming to grips with it, and becoming a stronger person in attempting to lower my expectations for my future. I’m not fighting to use women’s bathrooms, or certainly not locker rooms. It’s all too stressful for me, and I absolutely do not want anyone to feel uncomfortable if at all possible. If there is a single stall bathroom, that’s always the one I’m going to.

• ChocChocPorridge: Oh, absolutely! It’s very offensive to me when I hear people saying that women are supposed to be “prim and proper beauty queens.” Some of my favorite heroes are the women who go so strongly against those stereotypes! I cannot stand stereotypes at all, and I love it when people go against the unfair expectations others have for them just based on their sex or perceived gender. I just think people should be allowed to be who they want to be…and not have someone calling a woman “butch” if she isn’t perceived as feminine, or a man being called a “sissy” or worse when he appears effeminate. I don’t even like the terms “masculine” or “feminine”, as they themselves are a stereotype. The idea that a woman is just a “not-man” is horrifically insulting, and sadly…history has often shown so many men have thought exactly that way. :(

• Sulis87: Thanks for the comment! I absolutely agree - Gender stereotypes have been holding back civilization for far too long! My greatest hope is for TRUE gender equality in the near future…it’s certainly been long enough, hasn’t it? In addition, my opinion that anyone who thinks that “male privilege” is a false concept is an absolutely apathetic moron, completely devoid of any historical civil rights knowledge.

• RufusTheSpartacusReindeer: Thank you very much! :)

• ageingrunner: Thank you so very much! _ I am so thankful for the medicine that has changed my body more in line with how I always wanted it to be! This might be a little overdramatic, but it’s almost what I imagine it might be like for a person cursed to change into a werewolf, and then suddenly receive a cure to prevent or even reverse the unwanted changes. I was able to manage hiding my feelings easier before puberty started, and then suddenly every year I grew more and more horrified with the changes my body was going through. I had a panic attack when I saw my facial hair coming in, and hair growing on my chest. When things changed down below, I grew to despise them even more. Oh Lord, and my voice…the slow change from my regular voice to an ever-growing deeper one…I still remember crying when I heard my voice on a recording for the first time. I tried my best to not show my fears and distress at school or around my family…but, it was a living nightmare that continued on until I began medically transitioning last year. I know we all go through our own battles through puberty, but…other kids in school seemed okay through theirs, while I most certainly was not with my own.

I absolutely agree also about the gender stereotypes, and I completely understand how trans behavior can be seen as reinforcing them instead of challenging them. I suppose I’ve seen trans people of both types…some who embrace the stereotypes of their perceived gender in an attempt to be accepted as that sex, and then you see others who say “screw it” and throw stereotypes to the wind. I myself hate stereotypes, but then again, I have fallen into the trap of saying I feel “feminine” when she may just need to ask, what does being feminine really mean? Is it the opposite of masculine, and if so…what is masculinity truly? All I know for myself is the stereotype of masculinity is completely the opposite of how I feel, and I want no part of it…nor the genitalia that typically goes with it. (Sorry for TMI!)

• Datun: Thank you so much! I definitely agree that the stereotypes of femininity are in no way at all what makes a woman a woman. (My above replies go further into it.) Oh, and sorry…I had to look up AGP, as I was unfamiliar with that acronym. (I learned something new!) :) I believe Autogynophilia is usually associated with trans women who are attracted to other women, right? If so, I can see how that could be a bit concerning. I suppose maybe it could be a similar level of concern for a straight woman if a lesbian entered the bathroom maybe? I think a large factor may depend on how far along a trans woman is into her transition. From my own experience with medically transitioning, my “male equipment” down there was in no condition at all for intercourse (even if I ever wanted that…which I don’t.) For most trans women, it seems erections are (thankfully in my case) nearly impossible to achieve, and even if they wanted to, the skin is so much thinner that tearing is extremely easy. However, every transitioning trans woman can have a vastly different hormone regimen…so they are all going to be different. Another thing is a small few trans women can’t or don’t medically transition at all. (This is extremely rare from my experience, as most are dying to begin transition ASAP.)

I agree wholeheartedly on the need for being upfront and logical on all of this! So many people get their feelings hurt, then act out in ways that in turn hurt other peoples’ feelings, and so on. Some of the terminology bothers me, and the way some people are so demanding of being acknowledged. There are SO many people who are just like “Respect my feelings and opinions while I disrespect yours!” It’s ridiculous and unrealistic, and gets us all nowhere.

Thank you again for the awesome post! _ I absolutely stand with you against toxic masculinity, which absolutely DOES exist…no matter how much some people claim it doesn’t.

• CoteDAzur : Thank you! I agree with you on a lot of what you said! My response up above to MyVisionsComeFromSoup explains further my feelings on gender stereotypes and my dislike of them. A woman can be a warrior unmatched in strength, without a care in the world for what others find beautiful, having bulging muscles, a hairy body and short hair, or even facial hair. She is still beautiful and amazing for exactly what she is to me, because she is being true to herself. A man can be physically weaker and nurturing and pretty and all the things that are normally unfairly expected of women, and he is no less a “man” than anyone else. That is how I feel, and obviously…the majority of the world unfairly thinks otherwise.

I myself feel at my happiest when I am expressing my, for lack of a better term, “femininity.” I have no intention of ever demanding that I be called a woman instead of a trans woman, no matter how much I wish I had been born physically female. It’s important to have distinction I feel, and as I said before…I’m not really keen on the term “cis-gender.” Also, I prefer female pronouns, but I will never demand anyone to call me by them. My hope is that people will eventually acknowledge a trans person’s feelings enough to eventually consider it.

• Poppyred85: Thank you so much! I grew up so guarded about my feelings, or rather…my TRUE feelings…that now I actually really enjoy being so open about everything. It’s like being able to breathe finally. :)

I actually believe the term “trans woman” is completely appropriate in most cases, and I do believe a distinction is important. Oh, and yes…I definitely identity as a transsexual (or, at least…pre-op transsexual). I would prefer to to have genitalia that resembles a woman (and is able to be used for sexual penetration), but even if it is only externally resembling the vulva, I would be happy. At this point, I would almost even be fine just being rid of my male parts, simply for the way they are in the way and bothersome, a depressing eyesore, and have caused me aches my whole life.

Oh!! Yeah, there are a large amount of transgender people who also are very uncomfortable with people who say they feel female, but still present strongly as masculine, such as with a beard and such. I’ve seen only one of these in the transgender Facebook boards I’m a part of, and they caused quite an uproar. I think a large part of it is because they exactly the face of what everyone is afraid of with the bathroom issues…that just any asshole man can simply say “I feel like a woman today, therefore it is okay” before going into a women restroom or locker room. I completely understand the distress that would come with that, and don’t understand how someone could NOT after all the hell women have gone through for centuries at the hands of vile men.

Ugh….all the “phobia” talk. It's entirely overused in my opinion. I mean, transphobia IS real, and is out there everywhere. That’s a fact. BUT…I don't like seeing people take the tiniest little thing, even the smallest verbal mistake from people who don’t know the preferred language, and call it “transphobia.” Just saying this would probably piss off some people, but it’s my opinion. Don’t get me wrong, I DO understand it…because more often than not a trans person has been met with an insurmountable level of hostility, bullying, or other opposition at every turn throughout our lives. We are prepared for incoming attack at any given second…it’s been ingrained into us. Still though, the “phobic” adjective is thrown around way too easily in my opinion.

Gallavich · 27/01/2017 06:27

How is it ethical to produce sterile adults with the brains of children?

Well put. Angry

venusinscorpio · 26/01/2017 22:43

Some of the testimonials on the petition are horrifying. And they are advocating giving it to pubescent children for what, 5/6 years?

venusinscorpio · 26/01/2017 22:36

www.petition2congress.com/1902/investigation-lupron-side-effects-leuprolide-acetate

venusinscorpio · 26/01/2017 22:29

Nothing about this shit is remotely ethical.

I was very shocked looking into Lupron. Because puberty blockers are talked about by the trans community and trans allies as this completely harmless reversible thing to allow a child to make the more serious decision to hormonally transition when old enough. But they aren't harmless, or necessarily reversible.

ageingrunner · 26/01/2017 22:19

The effects on brain development from not allowing natural puberty are the most scary bit I think shiny and Poppy How is it ethical to produce sterile adults with the brains of children? And how sinister that some people apparently want to do this? Am I being paranoid to suspect the motives of such people? And adults discussing the orgasm and sexual function of children is just Hmm

adhdoh · 26/01/2017 22:03

Has this been covered?

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/oral-arguments-begin-minnesota-case-mother-suing-her-transgender-child-n712396

"Oral arguments are set to begin Thursday for the lawsuit of a Minnesota woman who is suing her transgender teen daughter along with a variety of local school and health agencies.

Anmarie Calgaro's lawsuit alleges that healthcare providers treated her 17-year-old as an emancipated minor without her consent when the teen began receiving transgender medical and mental health services."

www.facebook.com/emily.gruenhagen/videos/10211272920685409/

"In June, 2015, without her knowledge, consent, or involvement, Anmarie Calgaro’s fifteen-year-old son obtained a “Notice of Emancipation” from Mid-Minnesota Legal Aid, a nonprofit agency that provides free legal services to low income people.
Using this document alone, state agencies and private services shut Anmarie out of every important physical, emotional, and educational decision her minor son was making. Suddenly and without notice, she no longer had access to his school or health records. Without her consent, the state issued him a state driver’s license and county health services approved housing and other county services.
A private health service began prescribing dangerous hormonal drugs to ‘transition’ him from male to female. This health service never consulted her, even though these controversial and largely untested drugs cause potentially irreversible effects and have unknown long-term risks. He was even prescribed narcotics from another health service. Clearly, Anmarie’s God-given and constitutionally protected parental rights have been violated. And her responsibilities to care for her son’s physical and emotional health and safety have been blocked by the actions of these agencies and services. She has been denied the chance to plead her case in court."

WelshMoth · 26/01/2017 22:00

Not RTFT but they've pulled the documentary here on BBC2 Wales. Has anyone else had it aired?

venusinscorpio · 26/01/2017 21:38

Remember the poster who said there were 5 girls who all came out as trans at the same time in her teenage daughter's class who were bullying her lesbian daughter as she said she was only attracted to women.

Xenophile · 26/01/2017 21:23

That sounds like an example of social contagion. It's an issue that needs a lot more research around transing of girls, but it's a known phenomenon regarding other behaviours. Suicide clusters for one.

CantReach · 26/01/2017 21:13

The town I grew up in (northern, rural, under 25k population) has 2 secondary schools with a combined student body of about 1.5k and the one my friend works at has at least 3 girls currently transitioning to living as boys. This just came up in conversation and she works in a specific subject area so wouldn't be aware necessarily of any other cases. I have friends who teach in London (where I live) but the subject has never come up, but I don't think it's more prevalent in London at all.

Xenophile · 26/01/2017 20:42

There is a GP who does consultations over the phone, and then sends private prescriptions both for puberty blockers and synthetic hormones. I believe she is based in Wales. Her husband is also an MD, a paediatrician. Allegedly, they say he is an endocrinologist.