Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

www.transgendertrend.com has useful material. The document 'Creating a welcoming school for gender non-conforming pupils' may be useful to you CoolJazz. I don't envy you the job - it's a minefield

One is a sexual orientation and one is an identity.

Madelyn Berns had a YouTube video addressing the difference. I'll see if I can find it.

Cool, one pitfall to beware of is that the word "gender" now has 4 distinct meanings (which may contradict one another).

There's the meaning as used in linguistics/grammar, to denote the gender of a word (so, for instance, German has masculine, neuter and feminine word endings and articles - e.g. der, das, die for the word "the" as applied to singular nouns). We can probably ignore this in English (though as a poster noted in connection with an article in a French newspaper, it's leading other countries to get in all sorts of linguistic knots when they talk about tans issues).

As the word has traditionally been used in the social sciences, including feminist theory, it has meant "socially sanctioned, socially policed and culturally acceptable roles, activities, dress etc. pertaining to one biological sex or the other." Hence in Medieval SW England, weaving was a man's job: among the Navajo of what is now California, weaving is/was a woman's job. Soccer in the USA is predominantly a women's sport, football in the UK is predominantly a men's sport.

Trans activists typically use the word "gender" to mean "internal, mental sense of being a woman or a man."

Then, just to really mess things up, in societies which are coy about the sexual act, and by extension the word "sex", "gender" has come to be used as a coy euphemism for biological sex. Hence in the US you have the (to my mind rather bizarre) cultural phenomenon of "gender reveal parties", where the sonographer at the 20 week scan puts the details of the foetus' biological sex in a sealed envelope, which is then given to a cake maker who produces a cake iced in neutral icing. The parents-to-be then throw a party in which they cut this cake in front of family and friends, revealing a blue or pink cake beneath the icing (I told you it was bizarre). IMO, this coy euphemism plays into the hands of those who want to deny biology and use newspeak phrases like "assigned female at birth" when in fact they mean "observed to be female at birth though may decide at a later date they're not happy about this."

That gendertrender article also shows that shon Faye is very late to the transgender party. I read his guardian article and the comments underneath are unbelievable. All saying how wonderful he is for wearing blue eyeshadow. I'm misgendering btw, at the time of the article shon was a man.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/01/15/uk-attorney-sean-shon-faye-libels-ken-zucker-on-national-television/

Footage of Trans activist attorney Sean “Shon” Faye libeling Canadian sexologist Kenneth Zucker with fabricated and unsubstantiated claims of abuse of minors. Clip has been removed from BBC website pending litigation.

I wish Ray had got the chance to say "but Shon, you just did on national television" when Shon tried to claim that nobody is scaremongering to parents about suicide stats.

India is obviously desperate to have a TV career. Being Trans has possibly been good for India's career. Makes a very convincing woman but serms to really overdo the girly, diva stuff. Curious to what her fellow loose women think, especially JSP.

India is her own worst enemy. Is she still a Loose Women panelist?

www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2017/01/12/transgender-kids-knows-best-even-handed-look-gender-dysphoria/ telegraph had a review - very short and to the point.

Wanking Have a when you watch it, you'll need it for the first half...

I'm not surprised at the duplicate complaints, keep seeing stuff posted by transactivists that start something like "I haven't watched this vile show, but..."

Has anyone else noticed a resounding silence on social media from people who you'd think would normally be straight on the trans bandwagon, btw?

It's very frustrating how so many of the trans-critical people (like the man on the show who didn't want his daughter to get her hair cut) are coming at it still loaded with gender stereotypes.

I was fascinated by the fact that his daughter actually said one day she wanted to buy some dresses etc - what was going on there? She still definitely associated accepting her female body/reality with certain expected norms.

Someone posted the bbc link uprhread but please do send them a response of support, we need to balance out the complaints

To be honest, the Times is where I go for sensible comment these days. I have never considered myself right-wing, but I think the very liberal 1970s led to some dreadful views on children and sexuality, and I think this wave of very liberal views is coming up with something different but equally damaging.

One of the main tenets of liberalism I always thought was freedom but alongside responsibility. The latter has gone out of the window here

LOL at the outing of the dupes though. Same few people bombarding with complaints. Not a shock, but glad its been called out. I need to actually watch this tonight so I can send in compliments and thanks, as I won't do so without actually viewing the program. Though I expect I will be happy with it given reviews and such and the 'fairness' that has been commented on a lot..which is rare for anything about trans these days

India's brainfart about Gina Ripon's work is very funny. But, India has very regressive and odd ideas about women's place. So, hairy women = dirty in India's glittery little world and no doubt women who are experts in their fields = stupid bloody women there as well.

Surely the 'best' outcome is totally dependent on the child. For some that will be a social transition, for some a full or partial medical transition but for others it will be identifying as non-binary or genderqueer/fluid without a need for any medical intervention or accepting the sex that they were born as - 'desisting'.

And yet all the debate on twitter I've read from trans people is seeking to polarise it the views as anti trans and pro. Someone has analysed the documentary into 'positive' and 'negative' airtime. There is loads of comment on the desist rate being a myth and debunked with no concern or probing into the real life cases that the desist rate encompasses.

Surely any reasonable discussion of a complicated topic is far more nuanced than this. It isn't black and white and we'd all be failing future generations to treat it that way. It's such a lazy way to discuss something.

They hate us women wasting femininity when they would do it properly - i.e.: be submissive fuckholes, which is the true purpose of being a woman. See Paris Lees on the joys of sexual harassment and double penetration. Porn sick men.

I think that's quite a common position for transactivists. They only like those women who bend over backwards to be as self-hating and sycophantic as possible.

India is as thick as pig shit. Why does she want to be a woman when she doesn't seem to like most of them?

Probably a blessed relief too, Empress.

India blocked me on Twitter. I'm rather proud of that.