Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

Exactly Annie - he came over as very sensible (as did the parents and kids who worked with him) - he explicitly said that that wasn't his approach, that his approach was to encourage the parents to give the kids a wide variety of toys to play with (although, from one of the mothers, I get the feeling that if she never saw another pokemon she'd be happy )!

If I went into therapy, I would want someone like him I think. Slow, thoughtful, takes time and doesn't rush things. He came across very well indeed I thought.

The thing that really pissed me off about the Stonewall response to the programme was that Ruth Hunt cited the "drop the Barbie" line without acknowledging that it was the trans therapist that said that. Dr Zucker explicitly said it wasn't about what toys kids played with.

But facts, eh? What are they good for?

I think some critical thinking needs to be applied, who is driving this, why?

This is exactly the question we should be asking. And why now.

The programme is available to watch outside the UK now: archive.org/details/BBC-trans-kids

If all toys and haircuts were up for grabs without judgement, there wouldn't be an issue. Patriarchy pushes 51% of the population into a lower class which people either want to escape from or turn it into a fetish. The trans movement is homophobic and deeply, deeply sexy all dressed up as being bang on trend. I think some critical thinking needs to be applied, who is driving this, why?

www.datalounge.com/tags/4 Sorry, THIS was the link.

I have no connections to the LGB community, but from an outsider's point of view, T seems to have been accepted as part of them. Are the concerns about T on LGB community very visible, and been given a high profile, within that community- or is it still a marginal voice and most LGB have not yet woken up to the implications of T?

It's a good question. Judging by the comments that appear "under the line" on sites like PinkNews, I get the impression that opinion is very divided, with lesbians more transgender-skeptic than gay men.

Lesbians have been affected more immediately by all this, because they are having their spaces encroached on by "gynephilic" (attracted to women) transwomenthe late transitioners. Or autogynephilic, perhaps I should say. Early-transitioners, by contrast, are attracted to menthese are not the ones who have been getting into arguments with lesbians.

Among transmen, there has traditionally been no equivalent to the late-transitioning autogynephilic group, and FtM have been overwhelmingly attracted to women--because they are coming from the same group as lesbians. So transmen have not traditionally been hanging around gay men looking for relationships. Hence, a lot less worry/concern from gay men.

However, with the new trend towards trans-ing very young kids, I think alarm bells have been ringing among many gay men, who are like "Christ, if I had been born a generation later, I could have ended up on puberty blockers and getting my dick cut off."

With the new social contagion around TGism we have also seen some heterosexual teenage girls declaring they are trans, and some of these have apparently been trying to attract the attention of gay men. Of course, men do not feel usually threatened by this, just irritated.

Datalounge seems to be mostly gay men, and tends to be transgender-skeptic. It was interesting reading through some of the threads.

www.datalounge.com/thread/12395424-transgender-

the bald transman and the priest with the Bible King Trans Edition were the nuttiest people in the show.

The bald transman is coming across slightly deranged..wtf..'he' is saying that for kids its all about what toys you play with and what clothes you wear and stuff. Which seems to be true listening to the transkids on earlier. But his conclusion is that these children who don't fit into gender boxes...socially transition, rather than just be allowed to be themselves?

The other person who detransitioned, what a heartbreaking story. Why did this person not recieve actual help rather than be pushed towards transition :( Also the terrible 'transition or die' message being forced into Lou.

The bald transman again, complaining about detransitioners being a minority but get loads of attention...yet arguing for transition for kids with gender dysphoria..despite the 'true trans' so to speak (meaning those who would persist in adulthood without treatment in early years) being a minority. And what about the 80% of kids who would not have taken this route if not pushed there? Grr this is making me angry

Overall, I see why the transactivists are kicking off. The program was extremely balanced and those opposed to transing children came across a lot...saner...than those arguing for transing kids. I expect it made a lot of people think harder instead of blindly accepting everything, especially Lou's story.

Fuck me, some kid told their dad they were trans at 2 and a half!? Thats totally mental. So happy the dad ignored it.

About halfway through now..one huge sticking point for me, and this has been since the very beginning..its all about stereotypes. All these kids..want to play with barbies. Want long hair. Want to wear dresses and such. How the fuck does that mean they are trans and its a good idea to line them up for sterilization from the age of 4? Its annoying me a lot.

tygr

As a result of transgenderism I have seen untold women (mainly) say the same thing. Horrified that they would've been considered trans-when children.

And it seems to be getting worse. With the consumer lead Pink/blue product development over the last decade or so gender roles seem to becoming more entrenched. Plus the child-centric parenting giving rise to 'special snowflakery'.

Makes me feel old. And quite thankful, in hindsight that most parents during my childhood practised something of 'benign neglect', for the most part.

I don't know Datun. I suppose I'm assuming that dysphoria is more about sex/genitals/biology than it is about gender roles. Based on nothing other than my own experience and thinking about it so I might be totally wrong.

I wanted to be a boy when I was younger and that was definitely a gender role/stereotyped thing because I perceived boys to have a more exciting time than girls but I didn't hate my body and my femaleness per se.

I think that attitude prevailed into my early 20s until I met a group of lesbians and discovered there was another framework to slot those feelings into.

Now, I'm a happy woman expressing my gender in a more masculine way. I was never trans and I was never dysphoric because I had one set of feelings based on gender roles and not the other based on a rejection of biology.

I wonder if gender dysphoria is a condition suffered by association with unwanted gender roles.

I agree that the distress at ones genitals and the need to be rid of them doesn't make you the opposite sex. Just means not wanting to be THAT sex. But I wonder if the physical manifestation of that sex and the role expected is seen in the genitalia and isn't the actual genitalia per se.

I can see why there are more m to f trans than vv. Being a man is much more restrictive in terms of clothes and behaviour than being a woman.
It's a shame the men who then decide they therefore must be women don't put all that energy into challenging and broadening societies idea of masculinity.
Male friends of mine straight and gay did wear make up in the New Romantic era of the 80s and wearing flouncy clothes was OK then. Male dress seems much more limited now, maybe a reason cosplay has taken off so much.
Egyptian men used to wear make up and ornamentation, there seemed to be more homosexuality and bisexuality then as well.
Change society's idea of masculinity rather than decide that isn't how you feel and what you want to you must therefore be female.

Been on an interesting tour round twitter. This is a useful article:

www.c2cjournal.ca/2016/12/not-my-rights-movement/

Talk of the Transabled movement is downright horrifying. People who desire to be disabled and want surgery to achieve it.

I did want to say something about the dysphoria side of things, which seems to be being forgotten. People with gender dysphoria, as I understand it, don't just feel like the opposite sex but they actively hate/dislike/reject their own body and assigned sex. For this group, it isn't just about feeling like the opposite sex, which is a very nebulous thing, but is also about not feeling like their assigned sex and feeling trapped in a body that's wrong. I can't imagine how that must feel. It must be incredibly distressing.

Personally I've been quite happy to express my gender in a way that doesn't conform to female stereotypes. As I'm quite happy with my female body and to be seen as a woman then that's ok for me. I can wear men's clothes, play football, not wear make-up and still be a woman. For some people, that isn't ok and I think that some form of full or partial transition for them is ok. It's an extreme treatment but maybe it's the lesser of two evils.

Been typing this reply for ages and not sure where I'm going other than to say I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. The trans activists are doing a disservice to people in their own community by shouting loudly and drowning out the voices of those they purport to be trying to protect.

Grayson Perry is a very interesting one. He does not identify as a woman, has no interest in appropriating womanhood nor does he have any interest in accessing women's spaces. Despite this, he is a self confessed autogynephile. He is successful, well thought of and doesn't engage in oppression olympics.

If he said he was trans, IS a woman and demanded all women's rights were accrued to him, he would characterise the worst of the trans-ideology.

But he doesn't. He likes wearing frocks and has a sexual kink.

I like him immensely.

Looking at Mirandas tweets made me curious so I searched the hashtag #whoknowsbest and discovered this

www.transgendertrend.com/a-scientist-reviews-transgender-suicide-stats/

We have known for a while the 50% suicide rate us a load of shit though. Still good to see it picked apart though

The fact that anyone who has ever expressed the opinion that there are other forms of treatment for 'transkids' than transition was barred from that event is deeply terrifying.

From Miranda Yardley - Brilliant as ever

storify.com/TerrorizerMir/transgender-kids-who-knows-best

Cool- female Grayson Perry completely nails it for the younger me. I switched between jeans and t-shirt and (if I do say so myself) rather slinky dresses - but in the latter I always felt like I was pulling off some sort of magic trick, all smoke and mirrors, and that it wasn't the real me (much as it was fun to dress up).

There is no straightforward 'gay gene', even though it seems to be impossible (as well as distinctly unethical) to try and change someones sexual orientation

I once heard a radio interview with a biologist of some sort who was talking about the 'gay gene' and about how frustrated he was that people / the media treated a very complex bit of science so simplistically. The gist seemed to be that the popular idea that this gene automatically 'caused' homosexuality was rubbish.

From the mail article it seems like a lot of the commenters had watched the doc which is encouraging.

I asked DH to watch this documentary yesterday. He had his 'peak trans' moment. We talked for a long time afterwards about all sorts of aspects of the transagenda and the upshot was that he apologised for thinking I was a bigot for the last couple of years - he just hadn't listened to what I was saying.

This documentary is starting conversations. It's shifted the overton window slightly and it feels like it's more possible for people to begin to ask questions and properly think about what's happening, rather than blindly accept the mainstream dogma.

They're such nasty bullying arseholes. If their argument stood on its merits they wouldn't need to do it. But it doesn't, to anyone with half a brain cell.