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Original poster

"gender can be really important to people in a positive way"

42 replies

BBCNewsRave · 27/12/2016 19:27

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Sorry for another trans one, but a former feminist (well, I guess she still thinks she's feminist...) posted this on fb.

Seriously? FFS. Daren't reply...

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Prawnofthepatriarchy · 29/12/2016 15:48

I'm not sure what's been proved, Lass. Transwomen commit sex and violent crime at the same rate as other men, which suggests that hormones don't necessarily make a difference. The whole nature nurture business, plus our neuroplasticity, makes it hard to draw much in the way of conclusions.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 29/12/2016 15:44

Transwomen who pass appear to perceive sexism as transphobia. There was a ridiculous article on HuffPo by a transwoman whose arm was touched by a stranger. This, the author claimed, was sheer bigotry. No one would dream of touching a woman uninvited...

The fact that this person had no realistic grasp of how women are treated in every day life proved that their claim to have always been a woman was plain bogus.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 29/12/2016 15:38

Is an admission that some "gendered" behaviour is heavily influenced by hormones non-feminist ?

Original poster
BBCNewsRave · 29/12/2016 15:15

Prawn ...reported that however much the assailant was told that the transman was a man, he wouldn't stop

Are there more FtT detransitioners than MtT? It seems that way... and this sort of thing is probably why. A terrifying dose of reality. And transmen who "pass" also become acutely aware of sexism. Whereas I suppose for transwomen it's much easier to view sexism and homophobia as "transphobia".

I've been thinking more about the original statement, and swopping it with other things. So eg. "Race can be really important to people in a positive way". Well for a start, if someone had a placard saying that we should abolish notions of race, I doubt a lefty into equality would say "Oh, but race can be important to people"... but they might and it would kind of make sense. So race is socially constructed, like gender. Obviously there are small biological differeces like skin pigmentation and build, but perceived "race" doesn't match up with genetic differences in a clear way. (Hope that makes sense... so someone white might be more genetically similar to someone black, than someone white from a diffferent country, for eg.) And perceived stereotypes about race are generally bollocks, as with gender, and play into a social hierarchy.

But the notion of race could be important, especially to the disadvanatged group(s). It would be a shared identity and experiences amongst people in that group, and as a sort of reclaiming-the-identity thing, I suppose. Saying "Yes, I am a black person but I am not XYZ stereotype". I guess that's where it differs from gender though. Because if you say "Yes I am female gendered" you are literally saying "I am society's stereotype of XX people".

Argh

OP posts:
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 29/12/2016 13:17

Well put, in terms of feminism not requiring "ideological purity", Cancelly. We are all trying to get by in life and not everything is worth a battle. But no feminist can be "cis." Feminist class analysis makes no sense if the class "woman" comes to mean anyone who identifies as a woman.

Pretending that human beings are not sexually dimorphic results in a situation where, for example, women are no longer allowed to object to street harassment because if they don't like it they are told they have the option to transition to escape it. This, among other things, ignores the fact that you can identify all you like but what matters is what sex other people think you are.

Recently a poor young transman who was raped, reported that however much the assailant was told that the transman was a man, he wouldn't stop. How naive is that? It suggests a very young adult with very little common sense. As we have seen in other threads, some of the Tumblr generation seem to believe that real sex changes are possible, a very dangerous basis for decisions.

whoputthecatout · 29/12/2016 13:10

Feminism is a very broad church but I think allowing men to define women disqualifies you

Yes.

QueenOfTheSardines · 29/12/2016 13:06

I don't even understand what "gender can be really important to people in a positive way" means.

So say I say OK I want to feel really positive about gender. What does that mean. How does it manifest itself.

Does it mean "today I am feeling slightly masculine so I have put some trousers on and I feel pretty comfy in them"?

Or, what?

BeyondIBringYouGoodTidings · 29/12/2016 12:15

Cancelly sums it up quite well IMO.

You can be a feminist and make unfeminist choices.
It is somewhat harder to be a feminist when you have unfeminist (and yes I would include belief in a ladybrain as this) beliefs.

CancellyMcChequeface · 29/12/2016 12:01

I agree with Prawn. If you see that gender is a hierarchy, then it's impossible to also consider it an empowerful, my-choice identity statement. I'd say that recognising the gender hierarchy (and that it's a social construct and not innate!) is an essential part of feminism.

You can be a feminist and do lots of 'unfeminist' things - wear lots of make-up, take your husband's name, go on a diet. They aren't feminist choices but they're choices everyone is free to make. Feminism doesn't demand ideological purity and nobody has to give up their feminist card for wearing lipstick. Feminists can be from all over the political spectrum and disagree with each other on very many issues.

However, I don't think you can be a feminist and say that 'woman' means whatever anyone wants it to mean. That's fundamentally at odds with what feminism stands for, on a much deeper level.

Miffer · 28/12/2016 12:31

Back up where you were little thread.

user1482899995 · 28/12/2016 04:57

This reply has been deleted

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Prawnofthepatriarchy · 27/12/2016 22:06

If you visit the Everyday Feminism site you'll see loads of articles giving advice on how best to prioritize being a trans ally. It's very fashionable among some women, though I would question whether they are feminists. Feminism is a very broad church but I think allowing men to define women disqualifies you. Gender is a hierarchy that puts women underneath, and feminists reject this.

Original poster
BBCNewsRave · 27/12/2016 21:38

... plus this is the tip of the iceberg. I don't think someone who agrees with women not even being able to define "woman" anymore can possibly be a feminist.

(Btw it was written is response to a pic of someone holding a placard saying "abolish gender" or similar... can't find post now)

I'm finding it really difficult even as I have become more feminist over the last few years to find those I thought were on the same page have dropped feminism for transactivism... I don't mean we just disagree on the trans thing, but that they exclusively seem to focus on trans...

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Original poster
BBCNewsRave · 27/12/2016 21:27

Can you be a feminist and think gender is a good thing? Confused

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Leanback · 27/12/2016 21:16

You can be a feminist and still supportive of the trans movement. Don't label others for them.

HermioneWeasley · 27/12/2016 21:15

I'd love to know how regressive stereotypes can have a positive impact on anyone

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 27/12/2016 21:08

I think it's up to your friend if she's a feminist - not you.