Women as consumers

Well this thread was near the top!

You get the whole "pink pound" and "grey pound" thing for eg - it's that effect. The marketers take notice.

This is why everything at the moment looks so familiar to me & the 80s are "back" etc - my generation are at the peak of their spending power and also jobs and influence and you can really tell.

There were some articles a few years back about how Vogue et al said their sales went down when they put a black model on the cover. It's all a bit chicken and egg. As in, people need exposure to get used to difference but when cash is involved the magazines need an incentive if it's going to lose sales. Then there's the unconscious bias thing - everyone is drawn to "people like them" whether they realise it or not - this isn't only to do with skin colour / ethnicity it's everything. Sex nationality dress sense (class) etc etc.

Not sure what the answers are. If things keep improving albeit at a slow rate for women and minorities then we get more £££ and people wanting to flog stuff will react. It's very slow though.

Is now a good time to admit a couple of years ago when ASOS started using black women to model a good proportion of their products, I remember thinking errrm, yeah sure but I'm not sure how that's going to look on me. Thankfully I gave my head a wobble - I don't look like a pale redhead either but I found it easier to look past white skin. So I can totally see quencher's point about unconscious 'boycott' of places that use black models. If I'd been less aware of my own bias I would have scrolled past those clothes.

Happily (?) I am now able to look past/through a black model just as vacantly as a white one. Took a little practice though which is awful to admit.

Beebeeeight agree and Hermione you are right, boycotts work so well. It's been done before and will be done again.
On the politics and economics of race and hair:
Americanah by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie (one of Nigeria's many fantastic writers)
Good Hair film by Chris Rock

Shea Butter and body butter seem to have appeared from nowhere in recent years.

I was given a tub of Joules body butter at least 3 years ago and at the rate I'm using it up it may well outlast me. I probably should use it on the hard skin on my heels.

Tupperware?
I have never owned a single item of Tupperware.

For hair products I have bought stuff in Paks before because I have curly hair and am silicone free. I got told by the man behind the desk to go to Boots when I asked about sulphate free products. I think because he wouldn't know what you are asking for. The whole of paks is a Pakistani business run by only Pakistani men. They don't hire black people at all not even Pakistani women. I have been to all the places I have mentioned and am yet to meet a black Person on the shop floor or behind the counter. Most of the shop assistant don't speak English or know anything about the products. From experience the only people who know what is in store are the people behind the counter but not the ingredients or what it specifically does.
Every one who goes in there knows what they are getting or vaguely has an idea. It's a disservice that no one can actually get help in those stores if needed apart from pointing you to the direction of a hair dresser and the shelve you might be interested in.

I think they have a similar problem in America where the majority of those shops are run by South Korean men. It's their domain and they control the products and sales.

I would buy products with a black woman modelling except I worry that it'll look like appropriation.
Maybe if they knew that you can use it they might actually make it widely available. Not just designated shops that cater to a small section of society.

Really? That's quite surprising. I'm a rich white woman and I find nothing aspirational or attractive or classy about rapper style. It's your tastes they aspire too. They emulate it in their own way to suit them and showoff to show that they have made it into the white domain and are like anyone else. They can afford the things you buy. Designers design and set price according your (white middle class woman or above with disposable income) affordability or your aspiration. The rappers go for those designers who are deemed to have met the approval of white middle class white women.
One of the examples they gave was Tupperware. I can't really explain it well because I watched it a while ago. It was on Netflix called "fresh dressed".

PS men do "moisturise" their faces if they shave - they smear lotions all over a large part of it to shave with + aftershaves etc

The 2 in my life use shaving foam to shave but neither use anything on their faces afterwards. They both use an expensive perfume but sprayed on in the same way I spray on perfume.

I shave my legs and underarms once a week just using lathered soap as I find shaving foam far too messy. I only use body lotion after shaving if I remember and even then only to use presents up.

The rappers aspiration and what is acceptable is what rich white woman would deem classy

Really? That's quite surprising. I'm a rich white woman and I find nothing aspirational or attractive or classy about rapper style.

Queen I thought about what you said and also what the person who is friends with the car sales man said.
My feeling is our work and effort is dumped down. Any thing great that we do is overshadowed by men who take credit and think they should be praised for it because they are men.

What you said and this thread made me think of this comment from Michelle obama. Her message to all girls and women.

“We as women, we as minorities... we underestimate ourselves,” Mrs. Obama says. “I’m pretty smart. I work pretty hard. I’m good at what I do. I have really good instincts. I have great ideas. And I can execute. I say that out loud because we as women don’t pat ourselves on the back. We’re always sort of deferring. We cede our power so easily.”
In this context, Mrs. Obama then offers a message that she wants young girls everywhere to know:
“Live out loud,” she says. “Understand that what’s in your brain is really useful. Do not hide it. Don’t dumb it down. Don’t apologize for it. Just put it on the table and let people deal with it.”

Yes op, the second answer is the catch with all brands that cater to middle class European woman and above. They vote with their money and business know this.

I know people on this thread have suggested women could create change buy boycotting products because they have the buying power. The thing is when it comes to race. White peoples especially women do boycott products. Producers and sellers say it all the time. It's the language that makes us not think about it.
-There is a difference in sales when the face of a product is black Person unless your Beyonce. Rihanna seem urbanise products. It doesn't matter how she dresses or sells it.
Thandi newton used to be the default face of black women because she didn't make the product look too black. Racial ambiguity was what made her marketable. Her and Beyoncé used to be the face L'Oréal makeup for black people.
-There is a difference in sales when a movie stars a black character. Or the people who watch. It's even worse if the character is a black female. Very rare occasion for that to happen too in a mainstream film.
-the same for beauty products /fashion. Black women seem to make clothes look urban and that is not a good thing by middle class white women. Urban when selling to middle class white women is borderline derogatory to black women. (This was branded about on the advert threads and people didn't think of the consequences).
Adverts acts in same way too. People in the advert in the tv advert will determine who will buy it. The cheaper end products are not scared of using black families or black people. At the moment the most ads seems to have a black Person. However, if you look at the high end products, you will find about five black people (and that's pushing it ) who represent the whole race.

So, yes. If white women boycott products targeted at the general public, it will work. They have always had the spending power. I watched a documentary on the image of rappers once and one of the fascinating thing that came up was the the influence of white women as the buying power. Not for the music but what clothing brands are bought. The rapers aspiration and what is acceptable is what rich white woman would deem classy. The rapers do it their way but at the bottom line that was the aspiration. They also pointed out that at one point, the store where a wash with rapers clothing line and 99% of them failed because they did not offer the similar aspiration. Most of them are now paid to wear it.

For the L'Oréal lawsuits. Dark and lovely is the biggest company that caters to black peoples world wide including Africa. Followed by ORS which I think will become biggest because they are becoming more popular.

Car ads are mostly aimed at men.

God I can't even think now

There's numbers though. In the UK the shops will cater to the larger demographics. In areas with different mixes of people you will get small sections catering to the minority purchasers in the large shops, and independent shops springing up. e.g. our waitrose has a section for kosher goods as we have a large jewish community round here, also there's a specialist shop catering to black hair products, and our boots has a section as well. So from that side it's demographics, surely.

When it comes to COST - well that's a different thing entirely. When it's a matter of why white women spend more than men and women who aren't white spend even more again - that's to do with misogyny, beauty standards etc and is all pretty toxic.

PS men do "moisturise" their faces if they shave - they smear lotions all over a large part of it to shave with + aftershaves etc.

I think men don't "need" to moisturise their bodies as much as women as they don't shave. My legs only want moisturising when I shave them. Then they complain at me and I put some stuff on. Then there's dry skin / ezcema which is different again.

What bothers me in all of this - which I hadn't really twigged before - is why if women control 85% of whatever of the spending power - via direct spending or final decision - which doesn't seem unlikely given that women often are the ones buying food for the family, booking and paying for holidays, clothing the children, buying or having final say on white goods etc, tend to do all the xmas shopping for their own families and their OH, and head most single parent households so have the costs with them and kids by, TBF this all accounts for more I'm sure than the women buying more clothes and makeup thing (although that is true as well)...

Why are so many ads aimed at men? Or are they, actually? I'm just trying to think. Going to watch telly extra carefully later

Annandale. What astonishes me about the relaxer is how it hasn't been banned. The only people that use it don't see any other cheaper or easy option. The same should happen like they did with hydroquinone in black female beauty products for bleaching. I also wonder if that only happened because not only black women use bleaching products.

The response from L'Oréal about a law suit that was filed in September showed luck of interest and care for its customers. This is the lawsuit in a nutshell.

A law firm representing 2,500 women who claim to have been injured by L’Oréal’s SoftSheen Carson relaxers are demanding an “urgent product recall.”
*L’Oreal has fired back in a legal battle over a popular line of hair relaxers, rejecting claims it misled customers about the safety of its SoftSheen-Carson brand.
In a court filing last Thursdayy, the company said its SoftSheen packaging never claims that the relaxer “is any safer or less injurious than other chemical hair-straightening products.”

What I find interesting is essence online and magazine's take on how they sold the relaxer to people who used it.
Although the brand claims to offer “the safest and most effective” beauty products, this relaxer is particularly trusted because of the star ingredient.
Derived from the Indian gooseberry tree, amla oil is created by drying out an amla fruit and soaking it in natural oils for a few days. Beyond its holistic uses within Indian culture, the botanical ingredient is renowned for its many hair uses: deep conditioning, dandruff prevention and ironically—hair growth.*
What baffles me about this entire case is how it was assumed that this miracle oil would somehow cancel out all of the harmful ingredients commonly used in perms and relaxers.
“The ingredients in the product are very harmful,” the plaintiff’s attorney told Buzzfeed. “What you’re really getting is a garbage dump of chemicals that cannot possibly do what L’Oreal promises to do.”*

www.buzzfeed.com/leticiamiranda/loreal-rejects-claims-its-hair-relaxers-are-dangerous-and-un?utm_term=.jaKeQ4Xoz#.ovL48XpZy

www.essence.com/2016/09/15/loreal-lawsuit-relaxer-damage

I love body lotion. Don't really care whether men feel the need to use it or not, I like how it makes my skin feel.
I do know men who use it though. Have seem my brother use hand cream and dh and my boys use post shave balm.

I really enjoyed the film 'Good Hair' and it seems pretty clear to me from that that the amount black women feel they must spend on their hair is a racist tax on their existence. It is true that consumer products manufacturers will find a way to make everyone unsure of themselves and feel that they need stuff, but not everyone feels they need to pour bleach on their scalp or wear a fucking weave to be beautiful, that one is reserved for black women. I've got no right to be angry about it as I am not black, but I am. The fact that the barbers' shop, the beauty salon, the girls' night in, the spa day or whatever can also be a source of solidarity and a place to gather with your supportive network is something rescued from the wreck.

Why do you think that cosmetic companies don't put the same range of product for black skin as white skin? I think in most cases it based on the target market and it's not black women. I don't think we are seen as lucrative or there is some connotation to cheapening a brand.

However, I also know that for those who supply black products they do it based on based on supply and demand. It easy to do that in London. The change in last five years has been amazing. Superdrug started it off then boots followed in areas concentrated by black people. Mac the make-up company has been amazing in providing a ray of colours. Debenhams Oxford streets has about three counters for black makeup. Other counters might have them too but probably not in the right shade. The best counter to approach would be fashion fair and mac. They are more likely to blend the right colour for you. Not only that, you can get two colours light and dark for both winter and summer.

The the shops that specifically sell black products are never on sale or if they do then its one product at a time. Most people who go to them buy products in bulk enough for three to six months or a year. Depending on when they are coming back to Finsbury Park, Brixton, Daslton, seven sisters, hackney, Upton Park or forest gate. It's a journey you make if they don't leave in those areas in London. There is no buy one get one free or two for three pounds. No 50% off.
Amazon online shop is becoming a life saver and I think they are doing really well out of it too. It just makes easy buying possible.

I saw the lotion thread, am amazed by how many people don't see applying lotion, cream, oil as a daily necessity and more a luxury that you can go without.
If you see any black male celebrity including rappers, they all have body creams or lotions on or some form of oil on their skin.
I know my 50 year old uncle applies it, my grandad does it, and probably Patrick in east- ender to Trevor McDonald's and defiantly Lenny Henry because he talked about it.

Of cause there will be people who don't and don't care. But you can always tell

Thinking of the study. For those who looked at beauty products, did they factor in the black men? What could have possibly happened is that by looking at the sales of palmers and not considered black men using the products on daily basis.
Or the women buying products that is used by the whole family. That includes soaps, shower gels, body creams and the lot. To an outsider it's a female only products. That would include children too.

Husband and son both got lotion type stuff as presents - both said they never use them. Husband definitely never uses moisturiser on his face - tube has been sitting there for years.

My DH uses hand cream. He gets dry hands quite easily, he often uses gloves for housework but if he doesn't he will need to use hand cream.

He also uses body lotion because in the winter sudden changes in temperature (going inside from out) can cause dry skin, and in the summer he gets heat rash easily and having moist skin makes it less itchy apparently. Does the opposite for me but there you go.

He is a delicate flower though and also uses special hair products, so possibly he'd be in the skin conditions category.

Guys on the rigs tend to as well.

As in oil rigs? Must ask husband then- he had a couple of years on rigs before I met him.

has any one ever met a man who needs body lotion?

Yup, pretty much every member of the military on ops and a fair number of the guys I worked with in the wilderness in less temperate climates than the UK. Guys on the rigs tend to as well. Chafing hell is real