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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism ruins everything.

71 replies

Miffer · 22/12/2016 10:12

My alternative title was going to be - Awful stuff you never noticed until you learned more about feminism... this was snappier though.

So I went to uni as a mature student, I studied social science and politics and covered feminism usually as a tacked on bit at the end of each topic. A further tacked on bit would cover "women of colour" and "working class women" and "radical feminists". I was vaguely 3rd wave feminist as a result of this. Very post modern.

As time as gone on I have sought out and read more, become involved in activism and basically grown into a radical feminist with a bit of Marxist stirred in.

As I get older I revisit books, shows and movies I used to love and find more and more of them to be fucking awful and offensive. Has anybody else experienced this? Recent offenders have been-

Scrubs - So wonderful on the outside, such a diverse cast! So many problems though, from storylines about women heroically putting their career on hold for the sake of their relationship to women being bullied by other women for being too "pretty".

Handle With Care- A paint by numbers book by Jodi Piccoult which has a graphic depiction of rape which is never named as such. The husband rapes the wife to teach her a lesson. The husband is a good guy, although they split HE leaves and at the end they reconcile. The rape is never called rape or mentioned after it occurs. This was truly awful and I would be interested to know if anybody else has read this?

What Alice Forgot - Another book that is just horrid in how it handles relationships. I don't know why revisiting this surprised me as I have noticed this in later books I read by this author.

Has this happened to anybody else? Or has anybody else read/watched these and disagrees with me?

OP posts:
amispartacus · 24/12/2016 12:36

But this really attractive woman is denoted as a geeky scientist who no man would be attracted to because she wears glasses

Remember Jane from Neighbours....

DeviTheGaelet · 24/12/2016 12:31

Oh the girl geek badge Angry
Bloody Arrow is the worst, only I never enjoyed it. But this really attractive woman is denoted as a geeky scientist who no man would be attracted to because she wears glasses.
Grrrrrrd

TheMortificadosDragon · 24/12/2016 11:56

Lass - likely that 'general feminist you' probably is on the same page as you are. Why all the scientists (and token, derided engineer to make it worse) are all misfits of varying degree is beyond me, before we start on the sexism. Who decided that it was mandatory to plonk specs on both the main female scientists like a girl-geek badge? More Leslie might have helped.

Miffer · 24/12/2016 11:45

WhiteChocolate

I was able to copy and paste from the text.

This excerpt depicts rape

Suddenly, I wanted to make Charlotte see how this was tearing me up inside. (...) She was surprised when I grabbed her and kissed her. She backed away at first, looking at me, and then leaned into my body, trusting me to take her down a dizzy road where I’d taken her a thousand times before. ‘I love you,’ I said. ‘Do you believe that?’ Charlotte nodded, and as soon as she did, I tightened my fingers in her hair, forcing her head back and pinning her to the mattress. ‘Sean, you’re crushing me,’ she whispered, and I covered her mouth with one hand and roughly ripped aside her pajama bottoms with the other. I forced my way inside her, even as she fought against me, even as I watched her back arch with surprise and maybe pain, even as her eyes filled with tears. ‘Doesn’t matter what it looks like on the surface,’ I whispered, her own words striking her like a whip. ‘You know deep down that I love you.’ I had started this wanting to make Charlotte feel like crap, but somehow, I wound up feeling like crap myself. So I rolled off her, yanking up my boxers. Charlotte turned away, curling into a ball. ‘You bastard,’ she sobbed. ‘You fucking bastard.’ She was right; I was one. I had to be, or I wouldn’t have been able to do what I did next

For anybody interested in context the book is about 'wrongful birth' law suits. That's suing medical professionals for not picking up on serious conditions prior to birth. The foundation of the action being that the mother would have had an abortion if she had known. The mother wants to sue, the dad (rapist) doesn't. The thing that makes him a bastard is signing the papers... not the rape of his wife which of course was to teach her a lesson.

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 24/12/2016 11:36

Humour is subjective of course but I found the problem with The Big Bang was that it's not funny.

I only watched a few of the early episodes but the canned laughter , obvious jokes and the lazy stereotyping that anyone who was interested in / good at maths is some sort of social misfit was awful.

It seems odd that if you (general feminist you, not you individually) think there are barriers in getting women into Science and Maths that a comedy whose premises is that people who are into those things are geeky asocial misfits would ever have been given the time of day. My husband, who was a physicist before his career change hated it for that reason.

quencher · 24/12/2016 09:57

I op, I absolutely, understand what you mean. I judge every thing. I love the Big Bang theory. I think it one of best comedies I have ever watched.
But I have my but about them too.
When the cast is read out to you, it all sounds amazing and very forward thinking. The problem with them is in the editing and nitty gritty details that a lot of people will miss. The problem lies with the portrayal of the women.

I will explain why. You only here about what the women do. You rarely see them do.
Penny.
When she did her acting job, you actually saw her do acting and behave stupidly. It's was made fun off. Now that she has a better job. You only here about it.

Bernadette
She is portrayed as the nagging wife
Her husband basically made a younger version of his mother
You only here about her work. You are meant to believe she does the job she does. Now they have got her pregnant and probably her life will have to be fulfilled. It will be interesting how it will play out when the baby comes along.

Amy
We have snippet of her at work but they have all been in her house with the monkey.
Other than, that nothing.
They show a side to her as someone who would easily give into whatever Sheldon wants as long as the relationship keeps going.

The men
Their work is the central to the show. You actually see them doing the maths calculation. Discussing the theories and trying to figure out answers. Talking about topics that is of their interest rather than what one the women have done. (They do talk about the women but it's not why they are in the show. The women are there because of them)
With the women together is usually about the men, what one is hiding, done or about to do.

And that is a coward thinking show with female scientist.

quencher · 24/12/2016 09:40

The Sapphires'. If you haven't the basic idea is that it is a movie with literally no diversity but no one cares or even brought up this fact in any main stream reviews. It's a movie were the whole cast are aboriginal women. Yet when there is something like a full white male cast it's racist and sexist. Double standards. Jesus wept. Seriously?
The movie is loosely based on a true story. All the people the girls competed against where white.
Their manager is white. The worst part is whether it's sexism or racism, when the movies was advertised in America they made Chris O'Dowed look like the leading character in promotional pictures. Double standard my arse!

www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/22/the-sapphires-tony-briggs-and-his-mum-on-racism-in-australia-music-more.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/10225235/Backlash-over-sexist-and-racist-DVD-cover-of-The-Sapphires.html

Feminism ruins everything.
Miffer · 24/12/2016 08:40

WhiteChocolate

I have a kindle, it's 32% through. Towards the end of a Sean chapter. He wants his wife to feel as bad as he does so initiates consensual sex after telling her he loves her. He then rapes her and says that it doesn't matter because he loves her. He then goes and sulks at the table because the rape was supposed to make him feel better but doesn't.

If you would have told me that was in the book before I re-read it I wouldn't have remembered either. It was that more than anything that prompted my OP.

OP posts:
TheMortificadosDragon · 24/12/2016 00:24

I'm cheered by the idea of Emma Carter bringing new hope to the galaxy though.Grin

ChipsForSupper · 24/12/2016 00:03

On the other hand, as well as 'ruining' lots of films/books etc, feminism allows you to appreciate many books/films on a deeper level by allowing you to feel empathy for female characters such as the above mentioned Charlotte. On a less literary level, as a child I loved the Narnia books but always felt uncomfortable at the demonising of Susan because she grew up to enjoy worldly things such as lipstick (because I could see I was headed for a similar fate!) As an adult, feminism helps me to have huge sympathy for that character.

I thought it was a bit much, though, when she was played by an aboriginal woman in the film.

WhiteChocolateLindorPlease · 23/12/2016 22:48

OP I read 'Handle with care' years ago, it's one of my favourite JP books. I've been raking my brain but i can't remember any rape scene.

Can you give more info (or a page number) so I can dig out my copy and find it? I'm interested to see how i completely missed it.

ISaySteadyOn · 23/12/2016 08:19

The Big Bang Theory is an American sitcom about a group of 4 nerdy men and ThymeLord is spot on about it.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 22/12/2016 23:22

The big bang theory? Is this the name of a film? Because the idea that it might be racist stopped me in my tracks. What about gravity? Is that sexist or am I missing the boat largesome? I think I may have Sellotape poisoning. Xmas Grin

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/12/2016 22:35

I had a brief period of loving The Walking Dead but I'm now several series behind. I really liked the Carol/ Daryl plot line.

DeviTheGaelet · 22/12/2016 22:29

Yeah exactly stealth DH watches and I dip in and out but have been really annoyed by it recently.

StealthPolarBear · 22/12/2016 22:22

Walking dead - can only talk superficially but it's got worse as all the female characters turn to ironing.

ThymeLord · 22/12/2016 22:15

*sexist Hmm

ThymeLord · 22/12/2016 22:15

I know it's not exactly highbrow but...I can't watch the big bang theory anymore. I sit shouting at the TV Blush It's hugely sexism and I think very racist too.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/12/2016 20:30

I can't watch James Bond films anymore

I don't think you have to have a moment of feminist enlightenment to see how rubbish they are.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 22/12/2016 20:04

That's interesting, M0stly, as that passage struck a chord with me too. The TV version definitely conveyed Charlotte's resigned tolerance of Mr Collins, and the sense that almost any marriage was, for many women, better than nothing. We are left comfortingly aware that Charlotte is well able to get her own way, being far cleverer than Mr Collins who, though incredibly annoying, is no brute.

DeviTheGaelet · 22/12/2016 19:18

Mary Stewart "Wildfire at Midnight" which I loved as a teen
The Walking Dead Angry

HardcoreLadyType · 22/12/2016 14:44

I accept that circumstances were very different for the women that both Georgette Heyer and Jane Austen were writing about.

As far as Austen is concerned, I think we are meant to see this as social commentary. And because she is writing contemporaneously to her characters lives, she has a certain set of assumptions about the way the world is that you just have to accept.

In my opinion, Heyer's novels are supposed to be fluffy, lightweight romances, and they work as such. But if you delve a little more closely, it can feel a bit more uncomfortable.

I do like A Civil Contract, though. (I like most of them, but they don't all bear scrutiny.) Jenny and Adam don't have a big love affair, but they do find a happy and loving companionship.

ENO are putting on Carousel, next year, which I am somewhat shocked about. Surely they could have chosen a musical that doesn't glorify domestic violence. Hmm

deydododatdodontdeydo · 22/12/2016 14:11

Watch any 'disaster' movie. You've probably got 1 female expert. Loads of male experts - whose appearance varies - as it does in life.

The female expert is invariably not attractive at all, oh no, until she takes her glasses off and lets her hair down... Smile

(On the other hand, it almost always one of the male experts who makes a massive gaffe that almost kills everyone, or is just a plain baddie...e.g. Jurassic Park).

M0stlyHet · 22/12/2016 12:51

Prawn - one of the most acute exchanges in P&P and one that I absolutely love is this one between Charlotte and Elizabeth:

Well,'' said Charlotte, I wish Jane success with all my heart; and if she were married to him to-morrow, I should think she had as good a chance of happiness as if she were to be studying his character for a twelvemonth. Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance. If the dispositions of the parties are ever so well known to each other, or ever so similar before-hand, it does not advance their felicity in the least. They always contrive to grow sufficiently unlike afterwards to have their share of vexation; and it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of the person with whom you are to pass your life.''

``You make me laugh, Charlotte; but it is not sound. You know it is not sound, and that you would never act in this way yourself.''

Now obviously this is a point in the novel where (although Elizabeth and the reader don't know it yet) Charlotte is trying to talk herself into marrying Mr. Collins, but I've always wondered if it was also a cynical joke on JA's part, and much closer to her real opinions about marriage than otherwise.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 22/12/2016 12:47

My DH and I watched Pride and Prejudice on TV many years ago. It was fun to watch it with someone who didn't know the story or anything about the social mores of the period. He very much approved of Darcy rescuing Lydia, felt that it was just the sort of thing a man who loved a woman would do for her: practical and something she couldn't do herself. But his main reaction was horror, and a kind of awe, that people in a world where divorce was impossible had to decide on a potential partner from the few clues offered by brief meetings ruled by convention and in the presence of others. For men this was bad enough. He felt terribly sorry for the women, though he loved the story.