I don't believe in We Believe You

The problem with reasonable belief is that I can't see any other test. And whatever the test was the accused man would claim it were met. See the CE case where it seems to be like in order for him to believe him guilty you had to believe the women did not enthusiastically engage in sex with him, contrary to what he claimed. But whatever the test a court would be presented with two conflicting accounts.

Just reading the beginning and wanted to remind that the campaign came about due to a lot of stories where women (sapphire cases and especially that cab driver) and children (jimmy saville et al) had reported rapes and sexual assaults to the police and other authority figures and even their families etc and been turned away as they were not believed, leaving the offenders free for years to continue assaulting.

In that context there absolutely was a need for "we believe you" - it was about a situation in society where victims were and had been routinely not believed.

Maybe things have changed now so that most people in society / police etc do not react with scepticism to women and children and men who say they have been the victims of sex assaults. In which case - that's good isn't it - the campaign combined with all the other things around that time has resulted in a shift. Maybe it's not needed so much any more.

If a woman has a drink and asks a man for sex, she is not inciting him to commit a crime. My DH would forever be in the slammer, if that was the case.

I don't think all men are rapists. But I do think there are large amount of men who see an opportunity to have ze sex! and automatically think 'something' has to be overcome to get it. Like reluctance or boundaries. Or the word no.

grow. If you're not sure, don't have sex. Why is it such a massive imperative to have sex in what might be unclear circumstances?

The point is that in some situations it seems to be that the man is required to know the woman better than herself if you see what i mean. Anyway - i'm not sure what your own opinions on the female who has had a drink inciting a man to commit crime by asking him for sex scenario. I don't want to derail.

I've read it all now.

Incitement to commit a crime?

Well stats suggest 1 in 20 men are rapists. So not necessarily "a great many" but enough that a woman will know plenty of them and be at risk.
I agree with the report plectrum linked. Reasonable belief is fine as a concept, but in practice turns out to be anything but. Such as the man who fell and "accidentally penetrated" a girl in his flat, the man who "accidentally" had sex with a stranger in a hotel room that wasn't his because he mistook her for his wife. The man who "reasonably believed" a woman his mate had bought home with him consented to sex when he got into bed with her in the pitch dark while his friend was out of the room. Tbe man who believed a woman consented to sex when he had seen her drink earlier and entered a hotel room where she was having sex without even saying a word to her.
I find it really odd the bar for "reasonable belief" is so low. But God forbid any confused man accidentally gets accused of rape

grow. If you're not sure, don't have sex. Why is it such a massive imperative to have sex in what might be unclear circumstances?

'I'm sorry all of these things happened, but if you really believe that a "great many men" are rapists and want to rape women, then you might as well give up. Who's going to arrest and lock them all up for a start ?'

Who said a great many men are rapists and want to rape women?

'I dunno - i honestly fail to see how in most cases a man could be confused or not aware he is committing rape. Things get more difficult when people say unless you are 100% sure etc - i've seen it said that someone could want sex but if they are drunk then a man should refuse the request....his responsibility not hers. it almost seems like an incitement to commit a crime. I assume the reasonable belief in consent is not satisfactory either ?'

Under the law reasonable belief in consent is a defence against a rape accusation.
You know what's reasonable? For men and women to have sex freely in a situation where both of them genuinely want it and both of them are sure the other person genuinely wants it. I don't think that's too much to ask.

PlectrumElectrum

That article was indeed interesting. But the comments below are a massive eye-opener. Despite all evidence to the contrary, men still think there are loads of horribly vengeful, spiteful woman out there. Determined to put themselves through months of humiliation, just to be vindictive.

I'm sorry all of these things happened, but if you really believe that a "great many men" are rapists and want to rape women, then you might as well give up. Who's going to arrest and lock them all up for a start ?

I dunno - i honestly fail to see how in most cases a man could be confused or not aware he is committing rape. Things get more difficult when people say unless you are 100% sure etc - i've seen it said that someone could want sex but if they are drunk then a man should refuse the request....his responsibility not hers. it almost seems like an incitement to commit a crime. I assume the reasonable belief in consent is not satisfactory either ?

What gets to me is if you say that you are called a man hater

Yup. What gets to me is this idea that it's absolutely awful that men might be accused of rape and therefore we should be careful not to accuse them. How about men be careful about not raping women eh? Wouldn't that be revolutionary?

Ugh sparrow What a complete trombone

'Because so many men know that they've coerced women into having sex by getting them that little bit drunker than they intended to be, or by cajoling and boundary pushing until a woman gives in. They know that that was rape, and they're praying that the woman doesn't, and relying on the fact that there's no way that a woman could ever get a conviction on that basis.

They're worried that one day, they will actually have to start behaving like decent human beings, actually have to face up to the terrible things they've done rather than seeing these women as fair game and deserving all they got.'

WITH MASSIVE GREAT BELLS ON.

One of the guys who raped me was most put out when I complained as I was making what he did 'sound a bit rapey.' Em yes damn fucking right it sounds rapey because it was fucking rape!! He did not like at all that he couldn't just go ahead and have sex with my sleeping body without me getting all upset about it. How awful for him.

I don't know why the fear of this is so great but I think it comes down to this

Because so many men know that they've coerced women into having sex by getting them that little bit drunker than they intended to be, or by cajoling and boundary pushing until a woman gives in. They know that that was rape, and they're praying that the woman doesn't, and relying on the fact that there's no way that a woman could ever get a conviction on that basis.

They're worried that one day, they will actually have to start behaving like decent human beings, actually have to face up to the terrible things they've done rather than seeing these women as fair game and deserving all they got.

And yes, trolls exist, that's one of the dangers of engaging with people online. But I'd far rather believe a troll and find out I was wrong than to disbelieve a rape victim and add to her suffering.

'No of course not. My default position is that with regard to strangers, I don't know. The weight of history is suggests that lying is incredibly rare and I would assume they were telling me straight. And for all the reasons others have said below, in all probability they have been the victim of a crime and they may not get the justice they deserve. But my approach to that is to challenge this wherever I see it - not to start proclaiming my belief in people I don't know.'

I don't think you quite understand the point of the campaign. It's not about declaring belief in people you don't know, it's about extending the same courtesy you give everybody else to victims of rape.

So, if someone comes on and says 'Someone burgled my house' the response generally will be 'oh that's awful have you called the police', ie the default position is that the person is believed.

In cases of sexual assault the default position is often that the person isn't believed - they're questioned as to whether it actually happened. The WBY campaign is a strong simple statement to tackle that so that victims who need support don't have the utterly demoralising and frankly hideous hurdle of getting people to even take them seriously in the first place.

openly admitted

myoriginal
backing I can see why you don't want to necessary apply WBY to mumsnet threads. But surely the best thing to do is say nothing?
I thought WBY was meant to be an approach to rape generally e.g. with friends and family, with cases in the papers etc. Do you have a problem with ithe in those circumstances?
plectrum that article is amazing and grow you should read it. Why is the fear if wrongful accusation of one man so much more important that 96% of people who report rape not seeing a conviction and being branded liars and threatened with their own prosecution? Mud sticks to women too, usually women who've tried to do the right thing (and please remember that a man being found not guilty doesn't mean the woman lied)

A particularly hideous example of mud not sticking is the director Bernardo Bertolucci and Marlon Brando. Maria Schneider said for years and years that she had been assaulted during the filming of Last Tango in Paris - it is very clear in the film that she is genuinely terrified and crying. It wasn't until very recently when Bertolucci openly that he and Brando deliberately planned to humiliate and upset her that anyone believed a word Maria said. Unfortunately (or fortunately for Bertolucci) Schneider is dead. None of her 'mud' stuck in the slightest while she was alive, despite the fact that the film of her assault has been seen by millions.

I know this is a bit blue sky but I think it's about educating all of society about boundaries, bodily autonomy and equality. In other words, I don't think this is something we can achieve quickly.

I think women's bodies in particular are deemed available. I think men have no idea what this is like (hence the OP's friend's comments but also the general lack of awareness among men about all of this and the tendency to brush it all off as a bit of fun and banter). I think women are forced to play this sexually available game and call it empowerment.

No end of problems really

'Fear of an accusation drives it because whether or not he is found guilty, mud sticks.'

Mud does not stick. There are a large number of celebrities accused/convicted of sexual assault for whom the accusation/conviction has made very little difference. I know men who have beaten women in public and are still given unconditional support by family and friends, while the beaten woman is labelled 'crazy.'