Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Third wave feminism

112 replies

Tiredeyes89 · 15/12/2016 16:18

Long time lurker here, this is my first post so please excuse if I'm not very coherent Blush just wondering what the general consensus on third wave/intersectional feminists are? I ask because today I saw a post on a feminist Facebook page about the situation in Aleppo, and a woman had commented asking what kind of freedom did the civilians want,which was a bizarre question I though. When someone suggested she might want to do some research about the conflict in Syria she replied to the poster that as a black woman she didn't need to educate herself, and that people only care about the Syrian conflict and the staggering number of civilian deaths because they are white and she wanted to know if the Syrian civilians wanted freedom for " the black folk trans folk and genderqueer folk ". If not, then she wasn't particularly bothered. I was astounded by it all and anyone who disagreed with her was racist, and transphobic. I have this awful feeling third wave feminism is dragging us backwards, almost like it's come about to keep us busy fighting amongst ourselves rather than the patriarchy...any thoughts? (Sorry if I've ranted on abit!)Blush

OP posts:
DeviTheGaelet · 17/12/2016 22:42

quencher thank you for you post, it was amazing and insightful

fruit Surely the definition of prostitute is someone who sells sex for money? Why is it stigmatising to call a prostitute that? I think some prefer the term "sex work" so they can sweep prostitution up into a broader class that seems less risky e.g. alongside strippers, people who work sex chat lines (don't know if these are even a thing any more), women who sell dirty pants and shoes on eBay etc. Then it's easier to pretend prostitution is somehow empowering and a choice.

FruitCider · 17/12/2016 21:04

I'm not in agreement with the Nordic model. It has its failings.

Is there any other job/ profession on the planet which has to have a special name to prettify /santitise/ obscure what the job actually is?

Umm yes, my own job.

And to the poster quoting the guest post, the guest poster is happy to be called a prostitute. That did not answer my question. There are many stigmatising words to describe many groups of society. Why is it acceptable to stigmatise people who use sex to earn money by insisting on calling them prostitutes?

scallopsrgreat · 17/12/2016 17:16

Just going back to the racial bias with Syria. As other people have said she may have a point there. Did you know, for example that 340000 southern Sudanese people have fled to Uganda since July. That is the largest refugee movement this year.

Not sure what she meant about Syrian civilians having to support trans or gender queer folk, especially given that the vast vast majority of trans and gender queer folk have more privilege in their left thumb than civilians in Syria having the living daylights bombed out of them Hmm.

Leila78 · 17/12/2016 14:35

Sorry - that should have read 'prostitution and its filmed twin, pornography....

Leila78 · 17/12/2016 14:34

Agreed Lass. Prostitution and its filmed twin, prostitution, are nothing less than the sexual exploitation of women - and in some cases men (which is no better). They represent patriarchy and predatory capitalism at their most vile.

MysticTwat · 17/12/2016 13:37

Fruit
Here are some voices, some even says the people pushing for legalisation, were not interested in what they had to say.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2799410-Guest-post-I-didnt-think-of-my-prostitution-as-traumatic-but-it-left-me-with-PTSD

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 17/12/2016 13:32

And what about the prostitutes who do not wish to be called a prostitute?

Is there any other job/ profession on the planet which has to have a special name to prettify /santitise/ obscure what the job actually is?

What is the Nordic Model? – Nordic Model Now!
nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

We reject the terms “sex work” and “sex worker” because they imply that prostitution is innocuous and wholesome; that it is work like any other type of work, when nothing could be further from the truth

There is a large international movement led by survivors of prostitution that asks that we do not use these terms for this reason. They prefer the term “prostituted woman”

FruitCider · 17/12/2016 13:25

And what about the prostitutes who do not wish to be called a prostitute?

The thing that really gets me annoyed in conversations about monetary exchange for sex is that the voices of the women selling sex are ignored. This is where intersectionality comes in. How does the language used and the prejudices from the world affect women that exchange sex for money? What do these women have to say about it?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 17/12/2016 13:12

I guess it depends on how you define "supports the sex industry".

Using the term "sex industry" is a big giveaway as far as I'm concerned. Other less mealy- mouthed terms are available; commercial sexual exploitation or prostitution for example.

FruitCider · 17/12/2016 13:02

There really are wrong campaigns Fruit Cider. 'Feminists' who support the sex industries are not feminists.

I guess it depends on how you define "supports the sex industry".

YetAnotherSpartacus · 17/12/2016 10:21

Intersectional feminism is not the same as third wave feminism.

No, but many third-wavers claim that it is one of the factors that distinguishes the third from the second wave.

I disagree I have to say. Intersectionality might be a new word, but second wave feminism did raise and challenge the multiple oppressions that women of colour / black women, working class women, lesbian women faced. There is a whole literature on class and feminism, for example.

I'll ponder comments to my previous post and reply later ...

Leila78 · 17/12/2016 07:18

There really are wrong campaigns Fruit Cider. 'Feminists' who support the sex industries are not feminists.

RitchyBestingFace · 17/12/2016 07:10

Intersectional feminism is not the same as third wave feminism.

Intersectional feminism is about how women experience
oppression differently if they are black, working class, disabled, lesbian etc and acknowledging that white, anglophone, MC, AB women should not be de facto leaders of the feminist movement. It also acknowledges that women will ally with men where they have common experience of oppression (BLM being an example) but it doesn't stop them being feminists.

Women are intersectional, they find themselves oppressed not just because they are women, but also because of their colour, class, ethnicity, caste, race, religion and sexual identity/orientation.
Dione put it better than me I just noticed.

FruitCider · 17/12/2016 06:47

Feminists are free to choose which campaigns they support. There is no right or wrong answer as far as I'm concerned.

SallyInSweden · 17/12/2016 06:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FruitCider · 17/12/2016 06:03

Third wave and intersectional are not the same thing, not by a long shot.

I'm intersectional. When I look at peoples reaction to refugees in Europe, I note that most have more sympathy for Syrians, and wonder if that is because they have pale skin.

#BLM started in America but has very quickly been picked up in the UK. Yes I will support my black friends with this campaign, and acknowledge that black men in particular are more likely to be given longer prison sentences and detained under the MHA.

This does not mean that gaining women equal rights is not my priority, of course it is.

DioneTheDiabolist · 16/12/2016 22:59

"Black men rarely look inward to think of the women."

I don't understand this statement quencher.Confused What do you mean?

Leila78 · 16/12/2016 22:15

quencher: I am sure there are lots of straight white men with mental health problems who are feminist and/or don't 'leave all childcare and house work to women'.

quencher · 16/12/2016 21:38

Prawn you do have good points but I will have to pull you up on these two.
Gay rights activists don't seem to be expected to campaign for straight men. What for? Patriarchy is designed to benefit men, especially, straight, and even better if white. Everyone else trying gain equality is either to equal men or white men, even better white middle class and above. The only people that are different to the equal rights fighters are trans (men to women). So, do you want gay men to fight for straight men to keep the status quo of inequality as it is at the moment in all sections of our society?
We could easily argue that for better mental health in straight men they have to become feminist to take way the stigma of being macho and act the stereotypical straight male. By being the provider and protecter and leaving all childcare and house work to women. Feminism in the long run will benefit gay men too. It's whether they accept that feminism is important for the well being of people in our society.

Of course police officers shouldn't gun down anyone who doesn't pose a threat but the Black Lives Matter campaigners focuses solely on African American victims. Their focus is not just police shooting even though it started of as that. I doubt many white women are man handled the same way it happens to black women. This would not only be a racial issue but a feminist one too.
So if black feminist were outraged by the way a black woman or young girl was being treated, how would that be different. Is it ok, for only BLM to care in this instance and not other women of different races because it does not affect them? Am only saying this because I have seen it happen and brushed off as race issue. Not only that, the media not taking notice because the person was not a black man being treated badly by a white man.

All lives should matter equally, that is why it's BLM.

quencher · 16/12/2016 16:56

Yetanotherspartacus I have never thought of Syrians as white but I do see favouritism in reporting, help and intervention. She might see that as racism because they are a lighter shade to who she is. My reason for taking back that statement, not completely because I still think she is stupid to say she does not need to educate her self. (No woman is an island regardless of race. When it comes to women there is a point when we all face similar struggles, however, some have it worse than others race and cultures becomes part of it).
The other stupid comment I thought she made was, "what did a woman in a war zone want"? If she had any common sense she would know that the people who are most affected by war are women and children. That includes sexual abuse. The people least likely to escape leaving them in danger.

At the bottom of my post I did state that I can't comment on her other points which are trans and gay/lesbians rights and whether feminist should fight for them.

I personally find it difficult to argue against trans. Mainly, because I feel already like an outsider trying to find my way in and be accepted. But at the same time I see the detrimental effect it will have on both my little girl and my life. It's something I think about and try to figure out how to deal with and I just can't seem to find the answer or compromise.

Re- the South African woman. That is a struggle that most black feminist face. As a black feminist, you are not just fighting for women but you are fighting racism. When you are fighting for equal pay to be both in line with men and white women. When fighting against sexual assault, you are fighting to believed because of your race (there was a time when rape on black women was never considered rape) and and you are a woman who has been raped.

For the South African woman, what she would have been fighting for is to be accepted as a human being on par with her white counter part to even consider whether the work place are going to treat her girls equally to the men.

I think most black feminist are not asking for white feminists to fight for them but to accept the issues when pointed out. Not block it because it's racial or cultural and does not affect them or because they don't understand it, or brush it of as something which does not exist because they have never encountered it. That is why I said above that probably she is talking about of frustration.

The point about putting the brothers first. For black activist, both men and women are below white women on average wage earning. I would also assume that black men in South Africa came below white Afrikaans. So, yes, I can easily see why she would have said that. This applies both in the uk and America too. Not that race comes first but being black and female puts you at the very bottom of the pecking order followed by your husband, son or brother then white women.
This is the reason why people like Alice walker thought that they cannot abandon their men. So they would rather call themselves womanist rather than feminist to appease the middle class white women who could afford to do so based on their socials standing.

I think that sometimes black women go too far in supporting black men and forgetting their own wellbeing. Would I be called names by black men for saying this. The most recent report is that the majority of women who dies at the hands of their partner, Highest average percentage per race is black women. I wonder what they will do about that. I will assume nothing. One, it's not news Worthy and two it has race involved and the group is black women. Black men rarely look inward to think of the women.
Op, maybe you should ask the female if she is saying the same thing about black men and their lack of support of black women. Racially, it's always news when it concerns the black men and women are expected to stand by them and fight the injustice.

Phew! Got that out of me. Grin

DioneTheDiabolist · 16/12/2016 16:11

I agree Leila. My experience is that feminists who dismiss or oppose intersectionality tend to be white, privileged and heterosexual. Women are intersectional, they find themselves oppressed not just because they are women, but also because of their colour, class, ethnicity, caste, race, religion and sexual identity/orientation.

Leila78 · 16/12/2016 15:45

I think there's a problem with anyone, of whatever ideological persuasion, who views the entire world through one lens.

Feminism, socialism or whatever else is all good and fine so long as their adherents are able to see things from different perspectives at the same time.

HermioneWeasley · 16/12/2016 13:18

Applause for Prawn - incredibly articulate as always!

Datun · 16/12/2016 12:38

Ah SMERF - just realised what it means.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 16/12/2016 10:26

I notice that it's pretty much only feminism that is under so much pressure to be intersectional. Gay rights activists don't seem to be expected to campaign for straight men. People tend to campaign on issues specific to their group. Of course police officers shouldn't gun down anyone who doesn't pose a threat but the Black Lives Matter campaigners focuses solely on African American victims.

Women are the mothers of the world. It is selfish to campaign for issues that affect only women. We must dilute our power and scurry around checking on the well-being of any group that isn't currently being mothered adequately.

Classic example of this is TERF, which is a slur. It also spectacularly misses the point. Feminists don't exclude transmen, and this is because transmen are female. Feminists (and plenty of women who don't think of themselves as feminists) exclude transwomen because transwomen are men. Demanding that we centre men's concerns is the very opposite of feminism.