Third wave feminism

I don't view radical feminism as left wing.

You also view "prostitute" as a slur.

I mean if you are just going to make statement that make utterly no sense and only offer only tautological reasoning as evidence I am not really sure how much further we can go.

How on earth do you know we are all white and middle-class?

That made me so furious I just had to ignore it because I couldn't answer without swearing a lot. I count ex-prostitutes in my family (ex because they are now dead, way too young-both addicts).

good lefty put down there, well done

I'm about as left as you can get! I don't view radical feminism as left wing. Interesting, that...

I'm using the term "prostitute" so you understand what I am referring to.

Indeed, because it is incredibly difficult to discuss without using an agreed upon term. Hence my post earlier about language being used against women to stymie debate.

The reductionist views and the lobbying by white middle class women on subjects they do not really understand is quite worrying. good lefty put down there, well done

The reductionist views and the lobbying by white middle class women on subjects they do not really understand is quite worrying.

How on earth do you know we are all white and middle-class?

I also view "prostitute" as a slur. As do many "prostitutes".

But many don't.

People that exchange sex for money is the phrase I use. I've used it many times. I'm using the term "prostitute" so you understand what I am referring to. The speech marks indicate it is not a term I would use.

The reductionist views and the lobbying by white middle class women on subjects they do not really understand is quite worrying.

I have serious issues with the word "Chav" I would never say-

I also view "chav" as a slur. As do many "chavs".

I would say

I also view "chav" as a slur. As do many people from my background who are being labelled for the way they dress and their socio-economic background.

I see it as women choose, woman does.
Ie. Woman chooses to go on page 3, so I have no issue with it. I would rather it be page 69 than page 3 IYSWIM, but you get the idea grin
2nd wave would say that its wrong and unfeminist and holding back all of woman kind to allow someone to model topless.
To me 3rd wave is a lot more to do with allowing individual differences, actions and attitudes between woman than 2nd wave which is more about whats feminist and whats not.

Second wave feminists did not all speak with one voice and it wasn't all about 'what's feminist and what's not'. Over twenty-five years of movement writings, debates, books, journal articles and academic analysis was not all about that. The second wave was deeply complex, and feminists were often divided over a range of issues, producing many different, well thought through and defended positions, some of which changed and shifted over time.

Some liberal and a few marxist feminists would have been OK with a Page 3 girl. Others would have struggled with the complex issues of individual rights v. greater goods and / or with issues of structure and agency in shaping the world that women live in and in which such choices were made. Few, even liberal feminists, would have argued that choice happens in a vacuum.

I think that TWF is liberal feminism with doses of neoliberalism and postmodernism and without capacity or desire for real analysis.

Then what term would you use?

Prostitute with quotations which apparently makes it okay, as demonstrated in the previous couple of posts.

I've not once used the term "sex worker" myself

Then what term would you use ? "Women" applies to 50 % of the population and "people" is 100% so hardly helpful in any discussion about prostitution.

I want to see the abolition of prostitution.

Fruit Cider

Why are you using the word prostitute? Just because you use quotations doesn't mean you haven't used the word.

Can you rephrase your post using less offensive language? I am really interested to see what that would look like.

Again language being used to blur and mitigate womens issues. We can't say female, we (as women) can't define "woman", now we can't say prostitute.

Why can't we say female? Because of a few trans activists? I am female. I have female genitals. I am also a woman. However I cannot say TERF, as that apparently is a slur. I also view "prostitute" as a slur. As do many "prostitutes".

I've not once used the term "sex worker" myself.

I think my view point is very different from the majority on MN. I don't wish to see "prostitution" abolished. I wish for things to be safer.

A good example is the current law on brothels. 2 "prostitutes" working together our of a residential premise to keep themselves safe could be prosecuted for running a brothel. This forces people on to the street, which is fraught with dangers.

Criminalising punters also forces "prostitutes" under ground. This is why I do not support the Nordic model.

Prostitute = slur. Unless you are a "prostitute", what gives you the right to determine what this group of people are called?!?!? This is why some types of feminism, particularly those crowded by white middle class women, will never be intersectional.

What gives you the right? We've already established that some women exploited by prostitution prefer the term 'prostitute'.

I've explained several times that prostitute is a synonym for whore.

Words don't have intrinsic meaning either. 'Sex worker' is open to as much stigma as 'prostitute' and is also a synonym.

Definition is from

Again language being used to blur and mitigate womens issues. We can't say female, we (as women) can't define "woman", now we can't say prostitute.

It's an incredibly effective way to stymie debate about these issues.

Sex worker is a synonym for prostitute. So why isn't that offensive?

I am utterly baffled by the cognitive dissonance.

Yes hence "people". Although in reality most "prostitutes" are women

I don't know why you are wittering on about "people"- no one has said anything about prostitutes or prostituted men or women not being people.

You have been given 3 examples of organisations which use the term prostitution including explanations why.

My point is prostitute isn't a slur
Whore = slur, prostitute = description
Nigger = slur, black = description

What is an acceptable term to you that exclusively describes people who sell sex for money?

You carry on calling street sex workers whores. I'll refer to them as "women" or "people

No one apart from you has done that as you apparently think where and prostitute are synonymous.

You also ignore the fact that "sex worker" includes the "management " side of the " sex industry".

No one did. We called them prostitute.You saying prostitute and whore are synonymous so we shouldn't use either isn't helpful. It's a bit like saying nigger is synonymous with black so we can't say either. In which case how can we talk about the issues affecting black people?

Black is not a slur. You have missed the point spectacularly.

Or men, I assume, Fruit?

Yes hence "people". Although in reality most "prostitutes" are women.

You carry on calling street sex workers whores.
No one did. We called them prostitute.
You saying prostitute and whore are synonymous so we shouldn't use either isn't helpful. It's a bit like saying nigger is synonymous with black so we can't say either. In which case how can we talk about the issues affecting black people?

Or men, I assume, Fruit?

2nd wave would say that its wrong and unfeminist and holding back all of woman kind to allow someone to model topless.
I think second wavers are more about analysing the context in which someone might want to model top less and concluding that it's to do with objectification of women in a male dominated society and therefore not a desirable thing from a feminist perspective. I don't think it's about "allowing" it.