anti feminist on women & equalities committee

This is something that is often said- but people can never come up with examples. It does seem an odd conclusion to draw, considering that most feminists have male lovers, and fathers and sons.......

I agree, but then most misogynists also have wives, mothers and daughters. Having relatives or partners of the opposite sex does not in itself prove that you do not think women are generally better or preferable to men.

People on here have justified hatred of men as a valid reaction to living in what they perceive to be a patriarchal society. I would say that suggests they prefer women wouldn't you ?

I think some people get mixed up between feminists who criticise patriarchy and toxic masculinity etc, and people who hate men. It's a different thing.

"You can disagree with some feminist view points and not be anti feminist"

Of course. I can't immediately think of any, but I am sure there are lots!

"This will be controversial probably, but the impression I get from a lot of feminism is that actually, these people don't like men very much and think women are "better"."

This is something that is often said- but people can never come up with examples. It does seem an odd conclusion to draw, considering that most feminists have male lovers, and fathers and sons.......

I am always, perhaps naively, amazed at the reaction of what feels like the majority of mumsnetters to anyone who expresses a feminist point of view

I do know what you mean bert but there's no one thing that is a feminist viewpoint. I count myself as a feminist but I disagree with some of what I see on the feminist boards.

You can disagree with some feminist view points and not be anti feminist.

This will be controversial probably, but the impression I get from a lot of feminism is that actually, these people don't like men very much and think women are "better". They would never say it in so many words but it comes across. Not saying anything like all or even most feminists are like this, but a lot of stuff you read on the internet under the name feminism seems like petty point scoring and it detracts from the big issues facing women mentioned here.

I am always, perhaps naively, amazed at the reaction of what feels like the majority of mumsnetters to anyone who expresses a feminist point of view. The rush to either insist that it be moved at once to the feminism boards "because I've got those hidden" or to a mixture of fury and mockery is extraordinary. And depressing.

When - there are an awful lot of "I'm alright Jill's" around. They used to just not be involved in feminism, fair enough Jill, fair enough. Now, they seem to be actively involved in either working against or diluting feminism.

That makes me cross.

I've just signed it , it came up on my Facebook

There's a jean hatchet petition on change.org regarding this. I was going to link to it but scrolled down the page and it was showing my full name and home town

While different groups of women can be affected more or less across teh board, no women anywhere are completely free of these things and concerns

I didn't miss it, I think I missed that you meant - these things tend to affect white middle class women in the uk less than those from deprived communities. My mistake.

I think that pointing the finger of blame at women generally is a bit lazy

I'm not finger pointing. A pp asked why complacency seemed to be setting in. I was just pointing out that if you are a white, well educated, middle class woman you might not feel as oppressed as other women. Maybe that could explain complacency (if there is any).

Hence why I said

"While different groups of women can be affected more or less across teh board, no women anywhere are completely free of these things and concerns."

Maybe you missed that bit.

Obviously instances vary wildly across the world and across different groups of women. My point is, that the idea that in the west wealthier white women are free of concerns that feminism focuses on, is inaccurate. I think the reasons for things are more complex. Some of the women who capitulate in really extreme ways are as far from wealthy white and western as you can get. I think that pointing the finger of blame at women generally is a bit lazy. The people who really need to explain themselves around this stuff is the men.

^That's not quite true though is it. Many main aims of feminism affect women irrespective of wealth etc -
Sexual Assault
Street Harrassment
DV
Reproductive rights
etc etc^

Actually speaking generally (obviously individuals vary wildly) a lot of these things are worse in deprived areas.
For example abortion and repeat abortion is linked to deprivation.

No women is completely free of these issues but the effects are not equally felt by all women.

To be loved, to be accepted, by men, by other women and by someone else's idea of God.

I went through the whole please your man be a good girl thing, its gotten me nowhere, except wiser. Now my young adult daughter has her struggles too but has become allergic to religion. Can't blame her.

I hope Jess Phillips hand him his arse on a plate

Straight white male moaning that his voice isn't heard? Give me a fucking break.

The natural order of things

What I will never understand is why so so many women capitulate.

Exactly. I often struggle with my own religious beliefs because I see how they are used. I'm sorry but I can't have faith in a God that wants the female sex to be miserable and downtrodden. That's not my idea of God at all. But it seems to be many peoples.

Titanias they would have been banned, but at the same time, child sexual abuse victims, rape victims, dv victims, they had nowhere to turn. Disbelief, victim blaming, don't make a fuss was the approach. We go forward on one hand and back on the other. It seems to me.

Yeah I don't know either.

It's all very worrying. I worry that this (position of women in UK & similar) is just a blip in history. I worry a lot.

Men can control us easily - defeat us physically, we bear the children, it makes us vulnerable in a lot of ways. If they want us down at the bottom, down we go. I feel very defeatist. What's in it for them? Why should they treat women as humans rather than servants / breeding stock? I mean that sounds extreme but look at the position of women in so many places and what the main religions say etc. That's what it boils down to. Is women as people a luxury for a society and when the chips are down, back down we go?

What's really bothering me right now are the messages young girls are receiving from the media, especially music videos. Its all soft porn and when you really listen to the lyrics they are all about being sexually available and pleasing to men. Then the image that's promoted, so sexual. They would have been banned years ago when I was growing up and I think I miss those days.To give an example, this girls group 5th Harmony is clearly aimed at very young girls, just watch the video to their catchy wee track Work and listen to the lyrics.I would link but can't on my phone. I just despair of the messages we are sending out. All under the term 'empowerment'.ffs.

Maybe. I'm just trying to make sense of it all and how it feels like we are going backwards in some ways.and noone seems bothered except the feminists I talk to on here.

Religion is a big problem - resurgence. The are fanatics all over the shop.

Nationalism / facism.

Women are no more immune to the rather dubious lure of these things than men. And I suppose sometimes they over-ride acting in their best interests. We see women "siding" with the patriarchy in all cultures - women voting for trump, women cutting girls, women supporting the BNP/ britain first / all those arseholes.

Not sure what the answer is.

That's not quite true though is it. Many main aims of feminism affect women irrespective of wealth etc -

Sexual Assault
Street Harrassment
DV
Reproductive rights
etc etc

While different groups of women can be affected more or less across teh board, no women anywhere are completely free of these things and concerns.

I think that blaming a certain type of woman for what looks to me like a massive global backlash is not looking at the whole picture.

On the bright side, he might be a bit more challenging on the identification debate and might ask some difficult questions.

Then of course some of my anti feminist friends will be hit by an issue and be crying down the phone to me, still unable to fully see the link.