Shannon Mathews

Hermoine, I wasn't aware that I HAD "defended the indefensible". I said repeatedly in my post that Karen Matthews brought it all on herself. All I said was that I felt some pity for her living a miserable life...but that she had brought it all on herself by her own actions. I did not ONCE suggest that her actions could or should be defended. Actions have consequences as she has found out. My bulk of my sympathy belongs entirely and appropriately with her poor children.

I don't think anyone suggests that Hindley couldn't help it: obviously she could. The issue is that she did things that she almost certainly would not have contemplated if she'd never met Brady. And there are plenty of people, both male and female, who get manipulated in that way.

"(actually deeply sexist) 'oh she was manipulated"

People aren't saying she was manipulated because we're sexist, it's because of our understanding of what happened. I'm not an expert in it so I don't want to discuss the case in any detail, but my impression is that Brady was leading and she was following.

The thing is someone can be an an absolute horror of a human being and still face unjust sexism/racism. I don't know in this case though. We'd only know for sure if a man committed the exact same crime. As it is, we have no basis for comparison.

As for Hindley: she was fully accountable for what she did. She and Brady got sexual kicks from murdering children and they should both rot in hell as far as I'm concerned. Nothing gets my goat more than the (actually deeply sexist) 'oh she was manipulated, she couldn't help it' narrative. It only perpetuates the dehumanisation of women.

When I said "the death penalty for just about any crime", that was a clumsy way of referring to the time say 200 years ago when there was a death penalty, at least in theory, for a great many crimes, some not involving violence at all. Certainly not just murder.

So now we don't do that any more, but that gives us the result that there are people who've committed crimes that we find revolting, but who serve their time in prison and then are out in the world again. I think if that's the way society operates, it's our duty to let an ex-prisoner have some semblance of a decent life. I'll let the legal system punish people, and try not to provide additional suffering myself.

"I don't know if this has been said already but there is a whole chapter in Owen Jones book Chavs on this case and how the media treated it with a focus on the Medellin McCann case too. Worth a read."

I read it, but a lot of those arguments were being made before we knew Karen Matthews was guilty. When we found out she'd staged the whole thing, the whole class discrimination angle fell. And to be fair, the McCanns have argued that they're vilified partly because they're a well off, good looking couple.

Karen Matthews wouldn't have been hanged even when we had the death penalty, as she didn't commit murder.

The kidnapping aside there are plenty of 'bad' mothers like katen Mathews.

Thousands of kids suffer neglect.

Lots of mums get into relationships with sex offenders.

Prior to her notoriety she wasn't very exceptional.

She should be in jail until she hits menopause. I don't think she should have anymore kids.

I think that since we got rid of the death penalty for just about any crime, it's become necessary for society to find a place for people who've committed crimes. The law dealt with Karen Matthews, she went to prison and now she's out again. What's supposed to happen to her now, if everyone makes her an outcast? We might as well have strung her up in the first place. I'm not religious, but I think the Christians have a good idea in saying that there's no unforgivable sin or unforgivable sinner.

Gwen don't you?
I believe Brady was 100% psychopath, whereas Hindley wasn't. She probably could have kept that side in check with a different partner. However, her actions (in the murder cases) were equally as bad as his. Both were equally responsible. Both were equally bad in that instant, though perhaps not in the years leading up to it.
I'm not a psychologist or criminologist though. Those are just my impressions, based partly on an interview of one of the police officers on the case.
I think there is a tendency to see a woman in a muderous couple as being manipulated or coerced into being an accessory , and I don't believe that is true in this case, or the Wests.
As for Karen Matthews, I'm not sure what I think about her. I suspect sheer stupidity underlay her actions. What I can't overlook is the years of neglect, and bringing a paedophile into her children's home.
It's about time shitty parents (of both sexes) are called out and we stop making excuses for selfish neglectful parenting. Sadly there are probably many children in Shannon's situation (prior to the 'kidnapping').

She was always on benefits

And plenty of women are left "holding the baby" , but don't fake their kidnap, drug them and leave them with sex offenders.

Stop defending the indefensible

She was always on benefits though!

My sympathy is with her poor kids, and the people at her church group!

I actually feel some pity these days for Karen Matthews. Through her own actions she has lost everything...and yes as an adult she has to take full responsibility for that.
These days though she lives on benefits because nobody will employ her. Benefits for a single person with no dependents are appalling small sums. She won't have much left by the time her rent is paid (am assuming she is on Universal Credit so has to pay her rent out of the benefits she gets).

What a miserable life, and she brought it all on herself.

Men walk away from children all the time with no care about what happens to them. Mothers who are left holding the baby are judged much more harshly for their actions because we don't expect that kind of behaviour from them.

So I feel some pity for her. But I feel far more pity for Shannon and her siblings.
Whether Karen fully appreciates the enormity of her actions it's difficult to know, I suspect not.

She has no children (her children might or might not want contact when they are older). Her family have disowned her.

She has nobody and nothing in her life....and it's all her own fault.

I gather she has joined a church group and they might be the only people who can approach her in a non judgemental way.

I don't know if this has been said already but there is a whole chapter in Owen Jones book Chavs on this case and how the media treated it with a focus on the Medellin McCann case too. Worth a read.

"Hindley most likely wouldn't have killed without Brady, whereas he probably would have done with a different partner.That doesn't mean that she was manipulated by him though, simply that the darker perverted side of her personality was complemented and enhanced by his personality. "

Yes, but I think many people have this dark side. I really don't get the impression she's as bad as Brady.

Elendon you don't actually have to be the one who physically commits the violent act of ending the victims life, to be a murderer.
Just being present, involved in the planning, encouraging another partner, etc, are all part of the act of murder.
Myra Hindley was complicit in the murders therefore she is equally guilty, no matter which of them delivered the actual physical action (which we have no way of knowing).
I personally do agree with a previous poster that Hindley most likely wouldn't have killed without Brady, whereas he probably would have done with a different partner.That doesn't mean that she was manipulated by him though, simply that the darker perverted side of her personality was complemented and enhanced by his personality.
The fact remains that Hindley had a choice, she didn't have to go down that path but she did, willingly and deliberately.
She deserved everything she got from the press and public opinion, and much much more.

nauticant

Assertion:
Hindley turned a blind eye.

Evidence:
Ian Brady did the bad stuff.
The wife of John Christie.
A Cliff Richard video.
Suffragettes.

Conclusion:
Hatstand.

It won't change my belief that women who do similar crimes to men are more demonised.

I think everyone agrees with that, just that Hindley is not an example of this.

Sigh.

My historical research suggests that those women who fought for the vote, found greatest resistance from their own sex and peers, who didn't wish to upset the status quo. Sorry for upsetting the status quo on this topic. It won't change my belief that women who do similar crimes to men are more demonised.

Oh and by the way, no man has ever called me what Birdy did. All I did to dare was to discuss why women are more demonised than men for similar crimes. On an internet forum.

I can't even begin to imagine how hard it was for women to get the vote. Very brave women.

We are all bereaved mothers

No, we aren't. Some of us are. I am sorry for your loss, I know how hard it is.

Women who choose to march for the vote were demonised too as leaving their children without food and clothed in rags.

How is this relevant? Those women were not neglecting their children so any criticism was unfair . Hindley (and Brady) did commit crimes so dreadful no criticism could be unfair.

You are so full of flippant whataboutery I was in two minds as to whether to even engage with your posts. I am upset by much of what you have written and will step away if you are offensively lighthearted again, to protect my own feelings.