Transmen committing 'gender fraud' / in women's spaces - thoughts?

There is law in parts of the USA that says that trans people should use the toilet / shared area that conforms to their biological status, not their gender identity. Which means transmen should use the female toilets.

There's a very interesting article on transmen in women's loos on the Gendertrender blog.

*MTF not in women's spaces because they are male.

FTM not in women's spaces because they look male and it worries the women (and, actually, can more likely be trusted to obey this rule in my experience)*

Is it not so much that FTM can be be trusted to stay out of women's spaces because they don't actually want to be in them? They want to be in men's spaces, surely, so not really a big problem keeping them out of women's.

That survey showed that FTM do commit more crime - including violent crime compared to women.

Interesting. Wonder what they were like pre-transition? Some women are violent sadly, maybe they were predisposed to that before the transition.

Four loos then.

I've heard Cathy Brennan, lesbian lawyer and activist, speak about transmen, who are often lesbians pretransition. She speaks of the misogyny they often display, and stereotypical masculine behaviour. From her description I suspect a lot of it comes down to performing gender rather than being caused by testosterone, though I expect it's partly hormones. After all testosterone levels are highest in youth, the age men typically commit most crimes, with older men far less violent.

*sorry - 2 nots! But I'm sure it's clear.

I've always been of the opinion that transmen should have access to female spaces because they constitute less of a physical threat and do not have male aggression.

However I've taken another look at that study, and that would not appear not to be the case.

By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime

Frankly, I'm a little floored. If it was all about the hormones, then transwomen wouldn't maintain male pattern violence.

FTM not in women's spaces because they look male and it worries the women

And they've also taken testosterone which probably affects their behaviour.

That survey showed that FTM do commit more crime - including violent crime compared to women. And since any crime committed by FTMs would be recorded as a male crime, we can't really say that someone is at less risk of assault. Chances are they won't want to place cameras in changing areas - but what's to stop a man saying that he's a transman and putting a camera in a female changing area?

I don't know what the solution is that will stop men taking advantage of any law to access female safe spaces.

Chaz Bono and DM look very similar. One is a transwoman (well, they claim to be) and one is a transman.

Bumble - or we could use words to describe their sex, rather than adding more parameters to obfuscate?

Btw, I think it's essential that the same rule applies to everyone

I'm not certain it is. I think it's essential that we know the purpose of a rule, and obey the spirit, not the word.

MTF not in women's spaces because they are male.

FTM not in women's spaces because they look male and it worries the women (and, actually, can more likely be trusted to obey this rule in my experience)

I do understand the point that how much one looks like a woman shouldn't be a part of this.

It seems to me that the honour system is fine, that FTM have shown they can be trusted not to cause issues, but MTFs (TAs, AGPs) have shown the opposite, and therefore are excluded. Some transwomen have earned the privilege back for themselves, and get to be honourary women (gatekeeping? Yes but what's actually wrong with women getting to say who they consider women?)

Kinda like I can trust DS1 to sit next to the sweetie box. He has proven he can be trusted not to binge, but DS2 does not have sweetie box privileges because he's shown that he can't be trusted.

So the cases I've read about have been a trans man in a relationship with a woman where they haven't disclosed their trans status, not a trans man attacking a woman. In at least one case the trans man was getting pressured for sex and capitulated with a dido so as not to out themselves.
So I would have no problem with them in a woman's space. I don't think they are opportunist attackers.
Of more interest to me us that it seems to be acceptable to misgendering the trans men and use head lines such as "pretended to be a man" yet when a trans woman murders it's not even mentioned they are trans

You have to have a criterion based on something objective, and the only objective thing we have here is sex and biology, even if that may be obscured or difficult to determine on a quick glance

So maybe we should assign everyone born one sex a colour (let's say pink) and the other sex a different colour (let's say blue)? That we would easily be able to tell them apart.

"What would be interesting is to do the same study with MtF who have had the surgery......"
Criminality rates the same as I recall. There was a study that has been referred to several times on these boards.

As regards the 'how am I to know' stuff, this is just the same pseudo-argument repeated again and again (and with transmen rather than transwomen thrown in for a bit of variety). A rule/law/social convention based on internal, personal, subjective criteria (such as what a person thinks their own gender identity is), or your personal interpretation of what someone elses gender presentation means, is just not workable or 'safe'. You have to have a criterion based on something objective, and the only objective thing we have here is sex and biology, even if that may be obscured or difficult to determine on a quick glance, that doesn't invalidate the objective reality of sex/biology. The deterrent effect of a prohibition, after all, only works if the facts are determinable.

Actually, I have always wondered about that one Spartacus.

I personally think that this idea that gender is entirely a construct from society a but too much. I am sure that hormones have a play too (just see the influence of hormones on women with PMT etc...). And it makes sense that you see an increase of aggresivity in FtM who are taking testosterone.
What would be interesting is to do the same study with MtF who have had the surgery (testicules removed at least plus hormones) and see the effect on their behaviour.
I suspect that some of the aggressive behaviours will have calmed down in these people.

Btw, I think it's essential that the same rule applies to everyone.
If a MtF is allowed in women spaces and this is where she is supposed to be, then FtM should be in males spaces, not women.

If a MtF isn't allowed in women spaces, then a FtM isn't allowed in a men spaces and should be in the women's.

This WILL always create an issue because, yes, how do you know if the man in fornt of you is a man or a woman? And yes it does open the system to abuse too.

Testosterone must have an effect on transmen and their behaviour

More of a nature rather than nurture thing going down then ? Slippery slope that one.

Transmen seem to have just as high a crime rate as men

By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime

Testosterone must have an effect on transmen and their behaviour.

(Sorry point about DM lying is that he's a man not a TM or woman)
So the onus is to be able to trust transpeople in sex segregated spaces.

So amisparticus should women have women only space, then all men, transwoman and transmen have a separate male space in your opinion?

Trans men also take a lot of testosterone. What effect does all this testosterone have on them?

I am happy for any biological woman to be in a female space

How do you know they are a biological woman?

You can always tell a transwoman

Tell a transwoman what? To get out of woman's space? Yeah because that's working out well.

You can't always tell if a man is trans btw. You need to be able to trust the person this is the problem.

I am happy for any biological woman to be in a female space and Choc that was an excellent point you made.

The onus is on the trans-individual to be honest about their self.

I.E. Not lie about being of the opposite sex, so that as a society we can trust a person entering a woman's space who has a beard and double mastectomy, knowing they are being honest about their trans status and were born a woman.

The problem is, transpeople do not want to be honest. They want to play pretend.

I understand id Danielle Muscavato were to enter a woman's space he could claim to be a transman. But he don't does he. He claims to be a woman. He is lying.

So by that logic transwomen should stick to female spaces

You can always tell a transwoman. Most do not pass. I don't want a transwoman in a female space as they might well have a penis and be a threat.