Transmen committing 'gender fraud' / in women's spaces - thoughts?

I agree. And it's in the interests of the autogynephile to deceive psychologists. There are tips and tricks all over the net on how to do it.

I find it incredibly shocking how this aspect of the trans ideology has been allowed to get brushed under the carpet.

Datun, I mean that the mode through which such a risk would be prevented would be the GRC.

Obviously if psychologists are not able to discuss the research around that risk due to political pressure, no risk prevention can take place.

I don't want men in women's spaces regardless of how they identify. However, if we can't keep them out, which I fear may become the case, I am nowhere near as worried about gay men as I am about heterosexual fetishists. I can't remember ever knowing a woman who has been attacked by a gay man.

Except there's nothing in a GRC that says you can't have autogynephilia.

prawn may correct me here, because she knows more than I do, but from what I have read, having surgery is sometimes an option for those with AGP.

And in terms of threat, obviously you will have predators who represent a threat (whether trans or pretending to be) but the threat from those with AGP is also (or even mainly) to do with the fact that their sexual arousal is based on them having access to women's spaces, which enhances the fetish.

Legislation is through gender recognition certificates, rather than self identification. Being given a GRC was supposed to depend on surgery, psychological evaluation and presentation.

As opposed to what is being pushed for, which is self identification.

And how do you leglisate to prevent such a risk?

So if a transwoman passes so well that no one notices her presence the chances are that she doesn't present a risk anyway iyswim

I would have thought that being socialised as a male would mean that the risk is the same? Are you suggesting that gay men are socialised differently so they present less of a risk? I thought all men would be socialised the same?

The research that identified two main types of transwomen found that the gay men who transitioned were realistic, and would only commit to transition if they felt confident that men would find them attractive as women, and that women would accept them.

Men with AGP often didn't much care if they passed. They were turned on by wearing certain garments, by adopting stereotypical make up and mannerisms but didn't feel the need to "blend in" among the female population. This is where the huge blokes in dodgy wigs and blue eye shadow come in.

The triggers for AGP arousal seem to be very varied. Some get turned on by creating consternation in women who become aware of their presence.

So if a transwoman passes so well that no one notices her presence the chances are that she doesn't present a risk anyway iyswim.

I have less an issue with that as I'd probably never be aware anyway

Surely passing has nothing to do with the threat they pose though? They can pass all they want but still be a risk to women?

Knowing several FtM transmen and this is obviously anecdotal but it's still my experience - they report a huge increase in sexual desire and aggression (not always sexual aggression, but I've heard that too) when on testosterone treatment.

There is one transman I know who is 6ft, built like a brick shit house and heavily tattooed and facially pierced. He is also one of the hairiest people I've ever seen. I see people (male and female) cross the street to avoid him so there is no way any woman would be happy with him in women's spaces despite the fact he has a vagina.

Trans who pass as their desired gender should use the disabled loo until such time (which hopefully never comes) that there are so many of them that creating a third space for them is warranted.

Sod the disabled people then!
(Many of which are also women).

If they really pass and don't look like a man in a bad wig and ill fitting frock - then they will be able to use women's loos. I have less an issue with that as I'd probably never be aware anyway.

But, if you cannot tell the difference between trans men and some FtT trans people who self identify and don't transition (such as Danielle Moscato), and men how will this work in practice?

Trans who pass as their desired gender should use the disabled loo until such time (which hopefully never comes) that there are so many of them that creating a third space for them is warranted.

Those who do not pass as their desired gender but are clearly recognizable as their actual sex can use the spaces for their sex.

(This would, I think, also take care of the transmen problem, as I think the more violent ones are probably the ones who take testosterone and strongly identify as men. There's also those who just want to identify out of being a target of male violence, and many who just identify as "agender"; I don't think those will be a problem in female spaces.)

I would prefer for transmen to have their own separate spaces from women who don't take testosterone and don't immerse themselves in toxic masculinity.

However, if we are faced with the choice between transwomen and transmen in our spaces, I take the actual females, thank you very much.

I think this is two separate matters. Transmen who use the women's loo will not be able to trick the women there into having sex by pretending to be male, obviously.
So, they are not actually a threat in those spaces, even though they can be a threat elsewhere.

And yes, it is unfair and very revealing that transwomen who trick lesbians into being penetrated by an actual penis don't seem to cause so much anger in the general population. Why might that be?

It is both rape, but I think it is time we acknowledge material reality and make it so that, where this is not already the case (with rape versus sexual assault definitions) male-on-female rape is punished extra for putting the woman at danger of pregnancy and infection. Especially in the not physically violent rape cases where a man pretends to use a condom but doesn't, etc.

I mean, if you consented to being penetrated by a penis and get a dildo instead, this is rape, too, but it doesn't add physical damage in the way male ejaculation does.

The issue is presumably not trans men in general but women who take cross sex hormones.

As people are buying them over the Internet, there is no practical way of keeping women who use them out of women's loos, even if you did want to take that stance.

Also with 0phelia. If you don't allow transmen who look like a man into your space, by the same token you must allow transwomen who look like women into your space.

It can't be about perceived threat. It has to go with the statistical chance.

I agree, there will be the odd occasion where it is difficult to tell, but that doesn't mean I want I agree, there will be the odd occasion where it is difficult to tell, but that doesn't mean the law shouldn't be made.

I'm with Ophelia. Transmen are female. They don't have male genitals or male socialisation. They belong in women only spaces because they are women.

There's also the consideration that in the near future, a lot of poor young women will be de-transitioning. It's already started. Read the survey of more than 200 young women conducted by Cari of Guide on Raging Stars. The responses were collected over just over two weeks this August. These women, and many others, will need female solidarity as they come to terms with themselves.

As for identifying transmen and differentiating them from men, I've heard women who look super masculine say that if anyone gives them the side eye in the loos they just make some remark and, as soon as the other woman hears their voice they relax. Transwomen, otoh, always sound like men.

So taking testosterone to transition may seem to make a non-male more aggressive in some instances, but a transman will never be able to get a woman pregnant, even considering sexual coercion there's less risk at the end of the day. They (a transman) will generally never attain the height, bone/muscular density, size of the hands etc that a man or transwomen will have.

My view is a transman is a subset of woman and less of a threat than a man or a transwomen, a subset of men.

So any woman or subset of woman = woman space.
Any man or subset of man = male space.

You cannot always tell if someone is a transwoman. That will also become more difficult in years to come because of hormone blockers. But I agree that older men who transition are easy to spot.

Not true about North Carolina.

Trans people who have been through the legal procedure and had their documents altered can use the facilities of the opposite sex. The law just stops random self identifiers.

Sometimes all the hours, nay, days and days reading that I've done on this topic result in being able to supply useful stuff. Glad it's helpful, Spartacus.

North Carolina

www.ncleg.net/sessions/2015e2/bills/house/pdf/h2v4.pdf

Which parts of the USA does that law exist in?