Transmen committing 'gender fraud' / in women's spaces - thoughts?

Yes, Ophelia. I've been extremely lucky in the men in my life, in general, but that doesn't mean I don't know how dangerous men can be. I'm wary of men, not women. It's not the lesbian in a dark alley who worries me. I can't remember ever hearing of a sexual assault on a stranger committed by a lesbian.

The Greens, like other parties on the left, are misogynists. We expect the right to oppress women but the left are just as bad. To class women as non-men is really grossly offensive. I want nothing to do with people like that.

Twogoats lol. I've given up on them! Members do make for ever challenging chats.

Yes and likewise what makes a man?

I've had so many cocks shoved up me and have performed femininity to such a high (standard?) degree throughout my life, I think I know who is the bigger threat to women. It's not some dyke in DMs and on hormones,

It's men. Men who can get me pregnant. Men who are muscular and socialized as male.

The Green party hit the sels-destruct button long ago tbf

It's all back to 'what is a woman'?

Science/dictionary definition/lived experience

or

Feelz

Yeah... I wasn't sure exactly how to put it just then.
The female "part" of being a TM can never be removed? But you can have hysterectomy and mastectomy so that's not true.

I don't think I actually said "female essence" at the meeting. I just said "part of a transman will always be female and you can't change that" but have been bamboozled ever since with comments. I agree with you prawn

Ophelia, I agree with your post on the whole, but would take issue with the phrase "feminine essence". The phrase suggests that there is something immaterial, a female soul perhaps. When a transman gets pregnant it's his female body that's pregnant, not any sort of essence.

I'm raising the issue is because trans activists put forward a "feminine essence" argument. To them the reason that they can claim to be women, regardless of a fully male body, is because they have this mysterious innate essence. In response to that, I would say you can only be a woman in a material sense. I don't know what it feels like to be a woman. I know I'm a woman because of my anatomy and my life experience. There is no such thing as a "feminine essence".

Why are they male?
Because they identify as such.
Do they have an issue with being in the wrong body and the dysphoria that comes with it?
No..
Do they have an issue with the gender 'role' they are supposed to be?
Yes.
But then they have become pregnant......So not that much of an issue really

I was in a Green Party meeting (you know, the party of the Non-Man ilk)
And some right on feminist students objected to the term "pregnant women" during a talk on abortion rights. They held up the "exclusionary" card meaning certain people were excluded, complaining that transmen were excluded because "men can get pregnant too"
I kid you not. I was there.

I took the line; No matter how you present yourself to the world, no matter what your identity, if you're able to fall pregnant there's always part of you that will be female and it's that part of you that falls pregnant. Transpeople will always have part of them designated by their original, born sex. This is important and I don't buy into "men can fall pregnant"
No. transmen can fall pregnant. The female essence of a transman can never be removed.

This did not go down well with the Green crowd. I pretty much STFU.

I can't respect anyone who expresses that level of bullshit. Claiming to be a man while pregnant, or to be a woman while using your penis for sex... I'm sure some TRAs demand validation and the "correct pronouns" precisely because they know at some level what arrant nonsense it all is. If you're pregnant there surely can be no more blunt confirmation of womanhood than that?

But a tiny group (who often seem to have mental health issues) have been allowed to redefine what being a man or woman, male or female is. All that matters is how you feel, identify, think - your body, traditionally accepted biology is no more. So yes, a penis can be female, a man can menstruate and have a baby.

If you use your vagina, fallopian tubes, womb and breasts for the function they were designed, then I'm sorry, you are every inch a woman. And I cannot begin to understand the claptrap involved in convincing anyone otherwise.

It shows the entire definition of trans up for what it has become

Being trapped in the wrong body - but then pregnancy and all that encompasses surely is the ultimate expression of your female body?

It's the same for transwoman who still want to use their penis for sex. I can sort of see why they may not have major surgery but then to use your penis to have sex - I don't get that. It is like 'having your cake and eating it'. How can you believe you're female but still want to use your penis for sex?

I agree Datun and in some cases go on to lactate and breast feed.

If you're happy to get pregnant, gestate, and give birth how is that in any possible way being a man? It's being female to its core.

It shows the entire definition of trans up for what it has become - subjective and superficial with a heavy dose of having your cake and eating it too.

Why should disabled people be pulled into this mess?

Obviously elective mastectomies for cancer prevention are completely different to cutting breasts off because you hate the sight of them.

I struggle with this as well. I don't know how you could rationalise an elective double mastectomy with a swelling , pregnant belly.

Re trans men there are loads of photos on the internet of transitioned trans men. The vast majority of them look unquestionably male.

I'm honestly surprised at 'men who give birth". I struggle to 'get' those trans people who still 'use' their female / male organs in the ultimate way they were intended after they transition - men who still use their penis for sex and women who become pregnant. I really don't see how their struggle can be rationalised with becoming pregnant or using their penis - once they transition.

I would have thought that being a transman and being pregnant were incompatible if you were suffering from gender dysphoria. Just as deciding to use your penis for sex as a transwoman just doesn't make sense.

That's what I was trying to say, Monkey. The kind of transwoman who has put all that effort in is, as far as my understanding goes, likely to be a member of the group who aren't sexually interested in women. Their ambitions are very much otherwise.

I know men don't have to have a penis to commit sexual assault but I am a lot more worried about the 80% of transwomen who keep their penis than the ones who have SRS.

I am passionately opposed to men gaining the right to access woman only spaces. The current situation where you can protest if you see a man works and we all know what will happen if sex segregation gives way to gender feelz.

You cannot always tell if someone is a transwoman. That will also become more difficult in years to come because of hormone blockers. But I agree that older men who transition are easy to spot.

See this is where I differ from a lot of gender critical people..if someone passes, fine. Someone who has actually taken the effort to go through srs, hormones and such...I find to be less threatening than a random self identifier? This may be the wrong view to have but lets be honest, women have shared spaces with transwomen for years and years without knowing it and it seemed to work perfectly well.

Yes, transmen should be allowed into women's spaces, seeing as they have a vagina. These sorts of crimes are somewhat of a rarity and girls will always be more at risk of being raped by a man than a woman (Biological not trans definitions).

Yup. Though I would be in favour of a unisex option (aswell as male and female) also.